ktmason
member
Reged: 11/30/05
Posts: 172
Loc: Texas
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Look, I may have come down to hard. If so, I do apologize. Its just that when I see some folks follow these silly links to see "sacred" this and "secret" that, it drives me nuts. Think for a second--if it was REALLY that secret or sacred, whats it doing there?
Do you REALLY think that those in possession of hidden information would post in on the web? As a Freemason, there are some things I will NEVER post or tell you...ever. Those things YOU have to find, and EXPERIANCE for yourself. THAT is the way of the mystery schools, the TRUE hidden way. Any real school of arcain knowledge is that way. (again, pardon my spelling, I was just a History Teacher)
Look: You must SEEK to find. ASK for it to be given. KNOCK for it to be opened. NOT: type for it to be googled, blog for it to be answered, smileyfaced for it to be reveiled. That just does not work for the truth.
Yes, many of the mystery schools, and the Masons, are on the web. Yes, they DO provide information--and so will I. But not all of it. Not nearly all. That YOU have to find by study and experience. The true ones POINT the way.
I hope you understand what I am trying to say. And again, if I seem to have come down a little harsh, I apologize.
Pax
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KTMason
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andymonk
stranger
Reged: 06/02/07
Posts: 22
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You probably havent seen the flower in your temples,because the american version of freemasonry is watered down. If you had read the complete thread,you would have seen that i`m not talking about america! I understand sacred geometry a lot better than you think,as i dont have to listen to second hand information like you do. Anyone outside freemasonry who finds something that should not be hidden,will post it on the internet. What gives freemasonry or any other secret society the right to keep any knowledge hidden from the rest of humanity? Can you offer anything original or something youve investigated yourself? I also find it amusing that you use KTMason(Knights templar)as your signature. Why show that,when freemasonry teaches that all brothers are on the same level? No supprise to me,as its just one of many contradictions that freemasons never question. Why dont you read this and then tell me what ive got wrong......... http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_sage1.htm  Sorry if ive been a bit harsh....it does annoy when people just repeat second hand information. This may interest you.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoSHh_zF4eo
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ktmason
member
Reged: 11/30/05
Posts: 172
Loc: Texas
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I rest my case.
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KTMason
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ktmason
member
Reged: 11/30/05
Posts: 172
Loc: Texas
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New agers like the above gentleman simply does not understand the Western Esoteric Tradition. All brothers ARE on the same level. Are you a brother? No, you believe what others tell you, what you read (no matter who writes it). You really do not understand.
Why in the world would anyone want to share trusted information? For centuries Esoteric knowledge has be passed down from mouth to ear between adept to novice...brother to brother (or sister to sister, etc) According to you, I should just go out to the nearest homeless dude and pass on to him the Royal Secret--right? Yea, right. You can come up behind me then and share some sacred geometry with him.
You say American Freemasonry is watered down. You know that how? Which is odd, because most Masons would say that English Freemasonry has become watered down (not Scottish--thats still very traditional)
Masonry, like all Esoteric Traditions, is taught by degrees. One at a time when one is ready. To attempt to get all the knowledge at once would....well, I think you see what happens, dont you.
By the way, you never did answer. What DOES sacred geometry mean? You do know, of course, it can be summed up in one word, right?
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KTMason
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Arras
enthusiast
Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
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Quote:
ktmason said:Why in the world would anyone want to share trusted information? For centuries Esoteric knowledge has be passed down from mouth to ear between adept to novice...brother to brother (or sister to sister, etc) According to you, I should just go out to the nearest homeless dude and pass on to him the Royal Secret--right? Yea, right.
Sorry to interrupt, KT, but you raised a point here that deserves a tangential (respectful) discussion.
You've said before in other threads here that Freemasonry is not a "secret society", and expressed your frustration at the public's misconception of it as such. You seem to be suggesting here, though, that Freemasons are in possession of some "Esoteric knowledge", some "Royal Secret" that evidently cannot (or should not) be shared with just anyone. Can you begin to see the contradiction?
You seem to be describing an elitist organization that considers itself the custodian of some vital secret that the general riff-raff is deemed unworthy to possess. A reasonable outsider has to wonder who benefits from keeping this secret? If the nature of the secret is such that it affects the lives of more than just the custodians themselves, is there not some moral and ethical obligation to share it with the affected masses? And if it's a case of "you can't handle the truth", who is qualified to make that sort of presumptive judgment about other people?
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Masonry, like all Esoteric Traditions, is taught by degrees. One at a time when one is ready. To attempt to get all the knowledge at once would....well, I think you see what happens, dont you.
The same could be said of any involved discipline, of course--calculus is unfathomable without a solid understanding of algebra, which in turn requires a foundation in arithmetic. If you'll pardon the Masonic metaphors, our academic disciplines have used this "building block" or "stepping stone" approach for ages. What makes the Freemasonry curriculum so special?
If I decide one day to study, say, chemistry or philosophy, there are countless textbooks available to guide me from one level to another, from novice to post-graduate studies--I can find these at most any bookstore, anywhere on the planet. I can take classes at a college or university, or even study online if I prefer. The point is that this wealth of human knowledge is out there for anyone to access at their own pace, and to whatever depth of understanding they care to achieve. Why, then, does Freemasonry not do the same with its own educational curriculum?
The public perception is that there is an element of elitism to Freemasonry in that you offer this education only to the people you deem worthy. There's a sense that Masons don't invite just anyone to join a lodge, and that would seem to be confirmed by the stories about "blackballing". It's this sort of cliquishness that offends some people, I'm sure--this perception that you hold yourselves to be somehow better than the unwashed masses (hint: derogatory references to "the nearest homeless dude" don't help).
I think that's where Freemasonry gets its bad rap, frankly--no one enjoys feeling excluded, uninvited, unworthy, and it breeds a reflexive contempt for those who would lord their "secret knowledge" over the uninitiated. There's a natural inclination to view closed-door activities with suspicion, and it's not a big step from there to paranoia, as people begin to wonder what you're plotting against them--because after all, if you're not plotting against them, why else would you need to keep secrets from them, right? 
What I'm saying, I suppose, is that I don't think you're doing yourselves any favours by being exclusive and secretive while denying that you're a "secret society". Pick one or the other and embrace it; claiming both would seem to be an untenable position.
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ktmason
member
Reged: 11/30/05
Posts: 172
Loc: Texas
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Aaras:
I was writing about two different threads. Yes, it certainly sounds contradictory, but in reality, it isnt.
First, follow andymonks thread...I was responding to his "sacred geometry" discussion, which he really knows little about, dispite the fact he has a web site about it. His "sacred flower" was no more than a very nice geometric design that he read far to much into. By trying to say the "G" was placed there by some sacred geometric thing is ridiculous, its not even used anywhere but in America, which he calls "watered down." By "baiting" him, which I really should not have down, I was trying to get the discussion started again to explain that to him. This "sacred geometry" is the latest fad among new agers, like the "akashic records" and "channeling" was about 10 years ago. Funny, but the "G" only popped up in the late 1800's. Unfortunately, he doesn't know that.
The "Western Esoteric Tradition" I spoke of: Masonry has, since 1717, been lumped into it as a continuation of the Mystery Schools of old. Even among Masons, this IS debatable. There ARE many similarities, to be sure, but most believe its simply because of the methods of teaching that were passed down. Remember, literacy is a modern privilege we all enjoy in our modern age.
The OTHER thread to which you refer: The true secrets of Freemasonry come from within, what we learn from our rituals and the lessons from the degrees. The frustration I expressed was at the evil occult nature that many people seem to think we teach. We are not evil...if that were so, why so many hospitals, burn centers, etc, that we are famous for? Why are so many clergy, and other famous people members? 90% of our members are Christian, and remain so once they join. I am. I see no conflict.
You are right...in a sense, we ARE exclusionist. We ONLY take men (its a fraternity). We investigate them first, to make sure they are GOOD men (sometimes we drop the ball on that one), and we have our secrets (very few, but we have them). Now, what is the problem with that? If you think of it, nothing.
No, we do not go out and solicit members. However, if a decent man wants to be a mason, all he has to do is find a masonic hall (right in the phone book...real secret, right?) and ask to join.
As for being taught by degrees, I stand by that, as I think you do to. So does Christianity, and Judism, and all other systems of instruction, including public education. (in Christianity, the scriptures talk about the "milk first, then the meat") You read Curious George before attempting Plato's Republic. You learn to count before you add, etc.
You are right in all of your observations, and, there are no really good answers to some of them. Freemasonry will have to live with some of them. There will always be some folks who believe that there are UFO's, reptilian creatures are going to destroy the world, and we masons are going to take over--we are! Just as soon as we decide when to have our fish fry to fix the hole in our lodge ceiling!.
Good questions Aaras..not offended whatsoever..hope I answered some. If not, maybe I just didnt understand them, if so, ask again, my old eyes sometimes dont read rite. Good discussion by intelligent people lead to knowledge.
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KTMason
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Arras
enthusiast
Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
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Quote:
ktmason said:
First, follow andymonks thread...I was responding to his "sacred geometry" discussion, which he really knows little about, dispite the fact he has a web site about it. His "sacred flower" was no more than a very nice geometric design that he read far to much into.
Yes, he has yet to answer my own questions in this thread about providing source information for those crop circle images on his site. Given how easy it is these days to mock things like that up with tools like Photoshop, it's all the more important to document any real evidence with information about dates and places at the very least, so that other researchers can verify the findings.
It's irksome when supposed "researchers" fail to apply any scientific standards to their work and try to pass it off as something pseudo-scientific in the hopes of playing to an audience of willful believers. Very often the people behind this sort of thing are believers themselves and don't approach the subject with any sort of scientific skepticism--they select whatever scientific results support their beliefs and pretend that all findings to the contrary don't exist. Very bad science, but it manages to reinforce the beliefs of those who already want to believe, and that's where it does its real harm--it makes it that much harder to persuade those believers with contrary evidence.
Until (and unless) andymonk can support his evidence with some basic verifiable details, I can't put any stock in his findings, and I have to dismiss his conclusions automatically.
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The OTHER thread to which you refer: The true secrets of Freemasonry come from within, what we learn from our rituals and the lessons from the degrees.
The goal is "enlightenment", in other words--a set of important epiphanies that eventually arise in the student after years of study and practice. I can appreciate that; certainly that's the case with most higher-level academic disciplines as well.
Any mathematician will tell you, for instance, that something "magical" happens somewhere after the third or fourth year of post-secondary study, when the student finally "gets it", and the beauty of the mathematical world unfolds for him in new and wondrous ways that can't readily be explained to novices. In many ways it's like the moment the final piece of an enormous puzzle falls into place, and the image at last becomes clear. All those disparate lessons finally fit together into a unified whole, and the whole is greater than the sum of those parts. It's a beautiful thing to experience.
I've heard others argue similarly about philosophical and metaphysical matters, and of course "born again" Christians describe this very experience when they "find God". It seems to be a point at which understanding of a subject reaches a critical mass and one is forced to look at the world with new eyes thereafter. Such insights and epiphanies must be rare, but when they happen they're surely treasured.
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The frustration I expressed was at the evil occult nature that many people seem to think we teach.
Yes, I can see how that would be a source of frustration. I suspect it's a natural by-product of secrecy, alas--it's hard for outsiders to understand why secrecy is required if you're not plotting something nefarious. If all you're doing are good works, they'd reason, why not operate in the open? Secrecy feeds a natural paranoia in any relationship--a fear that if you're withholding something from us you're up to no good. It's harder to grasp why secrecy would be warranted if your actions are in our best interest, unless it's a matter of not trusting us for some reason.
To put the question a bit differently, is secrecy still something that Freemasonry needs? Does it really need to operate behind closed doors? Does it really need to exclude women? Citing tradition is well and good, but if those traditions are maintained only for their own sake, they may be doing your image more harm than good these days. After all, slavery was a tradition at one time, too.
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No, we do not go out and solicit members. However, if a decent man wants to be a mason, all he has to do is find a masonic hall (right in the phone book...real secret, right?) and ask to join.
I wonder how many of your members do in fact come to Masonry out of the blue like that. The public perception is certainly that Masons generally refer their friends and associates, in effect vouching for them and nominating them for membership. If true, this adds to the sense of exclusivity and cliquishness.
It's hard to imagine someone walking in off the street looking to join a lodge without knowing what Masonry is all about, though, and I'm sure that must limit the number of complete strangers who apply (despite lodges being listed in the phone book). It seems like the sort of thing that an existing member would probably have to talk to the outsider about first, in order to generate interest in applying. In fact, you should probably be suspicious of complete strangers looking to join your lodges--they may well be conspiracy theorists seeking to infiltrate your organization!
My impression, at least, is that current Masons became Masons because they knew a Mason--possibly their brother or their father. My late grandfather was a Mason, for instance, so in part my curiosity about Masonry is a quest to understand a man who passed on before I could really get to know him. I can easily see how family bonds could lead successive generations to follow in their fathers' footsteps, probably with encouragement from their elders.
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Good questions Aaras..not offended whatsoever..hope I answered some. If not, maybe I just didnt understand them, if so, ask again, my old eyes sometimes dont read rite. Good discussion by intelligent people lead to knowledge.
Agreed, KT; we've had our disagreements in these forums before, but I think they've always been respectful differences, and I think we both recognize that at the end of the day we're both seekers after the truth, whatever that may be. I appreciate you taking the time to indulge my curiosity and clear up my misconceptions
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ktmason
member
Reged: 11/30/05
Posts: 172
Loc: Texas
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Arras:
I still dont know to do this...so pardon some misteaks!
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To put the question a bit differently, is secrecy still something that Freemasonry needs? Does it really need to operate behind closed doors? Does it really need to exclude women? Citing tradition is well and good, but if those traditions are maintained only for their own sake, they may be doing your image more harm than good these days. After all, slavery was a tradition at one time, too.
Actually, YES, I believe tradition IS still necessary. Traditions form the backbone of many civilizations. Most westerners could not imagine a year without a Christmas! Many women today fondly remembering a time that men would open doors for them, fight for them--die for them. Aaras--most people still see differences between men and women, but those TRADITIONS are disappearing. Outside of a basic belief in God...most of religion (ANY religion) is Tradition, designed to remind us of God in our own particular ethnic or national way. Is that so wrong?
In a world of change, I believe some things should stay the same. Don't you?
So Masonry remains Tradition. So what? Its a FRATERNITY. Always has been. No girls. Cooties, you understand. Just kidding, but again, so what? Women are free to form their own club if they want, I don't care. I have NEVER objected to womens gyms, beauty salons, ANYTHING women want. As a matter of fact, I cant even THINK of a time when any man has ever objected.
Yes, we vote on membership and could be counted as exclusive, though not by social class. By goodness, if anything, we just dont want trouble makers. We are NOT a religion--we do NOT make bad men good, we TRY to make good men better. We have our rituals...we close the doors. When your church, temple, mosque, sorority, PTA, LIONS, whatever meets I dont ask what you do, so please return the favor.
Comparing what we were discussing to slavery was a little over the top.
I STATED:
No, we do not go out and solicit members. However, if a decent man wants to be a mason, all he has to do is find a masonic hall (right in the phone book...real secret, right?) and ask to join.
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YOU RESPONDED:
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I wonder how many of your members do in fact come to Masonry out of the blue like that. The public perception is certainly that Masons generally refer their friends and associates, in effect vouching for them and nominating them for membership. If true, this adds to the sense of exclusivity and cliquishness.
Actually, I read a book about masons when I was in the USAF in Alaska, and did just that! Picked up a phone book and made a call! No, it does NOT usually happen...but lately, with movies like NATIONAL TREASURE, books like DB's and others, it is becoming more common....BUT:
Even more common is that folks see our rings, or a bumper sticker, and ask us about it. That accounts for (about) 50-60% of our new members. About 25% are family of various types (brothers, cousins) and the rest from other things, mostly the "walk-ins."
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My impression, at least, is that current Masons became Masons because they knew a Mason--possibly their brother or their father. My late grandfather was a Mason, for instance, so in part my curiosity about Masonry is a quest to understand a man who passed on before I could really get to know him. I can easily see how family bonds could lead successive generations to follow in their fathers' footsteps, probably with encouragement from their elders.
One thing everyone notices when ANY conversation mentions Masonry.....someone there will know ole' so-and-so who was a mason, "and he sure was a good man."
And then someone will jump off the deep end and they heard some story that beneith every lodge is a mother ship with the reptilian invaders!
Have a good one Aaras!
Blessings!
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KTMason
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Arras
enthusiast
Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
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Quote:
ktmason said:Many women today fondly remembering a time that men would open doors for them, fight for them--die for them. Aaras--most people still see differences between men and women, but those TRADITIONS are disappearing.
Granted, but when those chivalric traditions cast women in roles that limit what they feel society will allow them to play it becomes a matter of rights. Those traditions may help you set women and men in a contrast with one another that makes them easier to distinguish--men do this, women do that--but imposing artificially-constructed roles on people isn't fair to either sex.
The world has always had feminine men and masculine women, to say nothing of homosexuals--it's a whole spectrum of gender identity. To say that there's a proscribed way for men to behave and for women to behave imagines the world as a black-and-white place where only the extremes of the gender spectrum--masculine and feminine--exist.
Those chivalric traditions, in other words, are disappearing because as a society we're beginning to accept that women can be firefighters and that men can be stay-at-home fathers. Traditions offer a comforting sense of "normalcy" to a society, yes, but they also make life awfully difficult and limiting for anyone who wants to live differently. That female firefighter encounters sexism and harassment from her male peers, many of whom aren't comfortable working with her. That stay-at-home dad loses the respect of many of his male peers for not being the bread-winner providing for his household. The culprit in both cases is the legacy of that chivalric tradition that makes you so comfortable.
When I hold a door open, it's not as a courtesy to a woman--should I let a door slam in a man's face? Of course not. I hold a door open as a courtesy to a person, without regard for its sex (or race, or religion, or...).
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In a world of change, I believe some things should stay the same. Don't you?
To a point, yes. I do think, though, that traditions need to be re-examined at intervals to ensure that they're still relevant and doing more good than harm to society. To blindly continue to do things a certain way just because "that's the way we've always done it" is madness--it's an easy way to avoid having to deal with real issues. It's the "because I said so" approach to social discipline, and after a while people start asking for better reasons.
For any given tradition, I think we need to ask, "is this helping more than hurting?" When traditions are held beyond question for too long they become like sacred religious dictates, obeyed mainly out of fear of being obviously "different" from everyone else, and ostracized for it.
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Comparing what we were discussing to slavery was a little over the top.
Hyperbole, sure, but to make a point. Consider that just a few hundred years ago there wasn't much if any social guilt over the fact that people owned other people. It had been an accepted tradition going back thousands of years, across many cultures. Some believed it was simply their right as conquerors to enslave those they had the might to conquer; others believed that there was a stratification of "greater" and "lesser" castes of humanity, and that these "lesser" peoples were put on this Earth to be useful to the "greater" peoples chosen by the deity of the moment. Whatever the rationalization, it took thousands of years of social evolution for people to realize that what they'd been doing for generation after generation was actually wrong--doing more harm than good. The new concepts of "human rights" and "social justice" finally made this obvious.
My point was that unless we're willing to examine our traditions critically, we risk waking up one day to realize that we've been hurting a lot of people. The example of chivalric tradition you raised is a case in point--we're already beginning to see how the legacy of amour courtois has been repressing women, affecting the way we raise our daughters (and sons)--all the while we've been telling ourselves we were just being courteous and good. While our traditions give us comfort and a sense of identity, we need to weigh those benefits against the harm we may be inflicting on others, consciously or not.
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Women are free to form their own club if they want, I don't care. I have NEVER objected to womens gyms, beauty salons, ANYTHING women want. As a matter of fact, I cant even THINK of a time when any man has ever objected.
No? It seems to come up in the news every couple of years or so, with some jerk suing a women-only health club for discriminating against men. Stories like this one, or this one, or this one. That just took five minutes of Googling; I'm sure there are more examples.
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We have our rituals...we close the doors. When your church, temple, mosque, sorority, PTA, LIONS, whatever meets I dont ask what you do, so please return the favor.
That's fair. What you do (consensually) behind your own closed doors is your business alone, I agree.
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Even more common is that folks see our rings, or a bumper sticker, and ask us about it. That accounts for (about) 50-60% of our new members.
Interesting! I'd always imagined those symbols were all about identifying yourselves to fellow Masons, but it seems they serve a dual-purpose as "Ask me about Masonry!" ads I wonder now how many people miss that opportunity because of their preconceptions of the Masons being a closed, secretive group. I know that I've never thought of just asking a ring-wearing Mason about Masonry--I just assumed he wouldn't tell me anything about it, that it was all "secret". My grandfather certainly wouldn't talk about it on those occasions when I thought to ask, so I got the impression that Masons were sworn to secrecy or somesuch.
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One thing everyone notices when ANY conversation mentions Masonry.....someone there will know ole' so-and-so who was a mason, "and he sure was a good man."
Well, I suspect the "good man" appraisal is probably a very culturally-relative thing. My grandfather was a veritable Archie Bunker, and his father before him (a higher-degree Mason) was supposedly an even more bigoted Orangeman, but they were both "good men" in their own social contexts. I'm not suggesting that Masonry was responsible for their racist and sexist attitudes, but at the same time Masonry obviously tolerated them.
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And then someone will jump off the deep end and they heard some story that beneith every lodge is a mother ship with the reptilian invaders!
Now I've got you on the record with that admission, I can finally finish writing The Solomon Key
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Have a good one Aaras!
Blessings!
And to you, KT!
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