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Arras
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Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
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Re: Da Vinci Code Movie Discussion new [Re: Remarkable]
      #7982 - 06/06/06 12:31 PM

Quote:

Remarkable said:
It's not true that Christians generally believe that Jesus was the son of God i.e. it's not playing semantic games. A survey of Church of England (protestants) clergy last year revealed a significant proportion - 40% - don't believe in the virgin birth. In fact hundreds of them don't even believe in God. This is the *clergy* we're talking about here.




Ah, but now you're distinguishing between what people believe and what they claim to believe--there's almost always going to be a significant difference there. As soon as these people decide that Jesus is not the Son of God, they cease to be "Christians" in the strictest sense, despite the fact that they continue to call themselves "Christians," attend services, and so forth.

The reasons are various, but there have always been people who hide behind a convenient religious label to avoid having to explain the nuances of their personal beliefs, and risk being ostracized in their communities for being "different." A lot of people who were born into Catholic families, for example, were baptised as Catholics as infants, went through the Confirmation ritual in adolescence and end up calling themselves "Catholics" for the rest of their lives, no matter how much their personal beliefs change over the years. It's not a phenomenon limited to Christianity either--Judaism and Islam also have their share of false claimants.

Sometimes it's because of simple laziness. As children their beliefs were pure and doctrinal, but as they grew older and learned more about the world they began to question aspects of the scripture, trying to find ways to reconcile science's version of reality with the miraculous world of religion. They may decide to drop bits and pieces of their faith's creed, but still consider themselves to be pious. This causes some of them to seek out other denominations that better reflect their chosen set of scriptural edits. They may simply not know what else to call themselves, and they rationalize that they share many of the Christian ideals, so therefore they're still "Christians in spirit."

Others go along with it for the "social ritual" of religion. A couple gets married, and the wife is far more devout than the husband. He respects her beliefs, and she respects his, but when they have children, they decide to attend religious services as a family, either "for the sake of the children," or because "it's the thing to do." On the surface you'd guess that everyone who bothered to go to church on Sunday was a Christian, but if you conducted a silent poll of those "worshippers" you'd find--as the poll you cite does--that many of them are there for other reasons.

For still others it's a case of social stigma. If you live in an area where the vast majority of your fellow citizens claim to adhere to a particular religion, you feel pressure to conform--outwardly, at least. Try calling yourself an atheist in a small town where everybody else claims to be a Catholic, for instance, and watch as you get singled out for special treatment that you really don't want. Between attempts to convert you and outright rudeness from others, and the unspoken threat of discrimination, it's often easiest just to say, "yeah, I'm one of you."

It's more hypocritical for the clergy, of course, to be leading a congregation in prayer and preaching doctrines they personally no longer believe. Nevertheless, it happens. Priests and ministers and rabbis and imams all have their "crises of faith" from time to time, but they often recognize that their duty--or at the very least their "job"--is to nurture the faith of their congregations, so they hide their own doubts and get back to work, perhaps hoping they'll be "re-inspired" eventually.

In the end, though, it is about semantics. If everyone had the ability to define "Christian" to suit their own personal set of scriptural edits, the word would soon become meaningless. Before the Reformation, the word "Christian" effectively implied "Catholic", but over the centuries with the many flavours of Protestantism splintering believers along doctrinal lines, the word has lost more and more of its specificity. Today the only thing that all of these Christian sects can agree upon is that there is one God, and that Jesus is His Son, the Messiah (i.e. the "Christ"). Take away that, and the word becomes so vague as to be all but meaningless. At that point, anybody who agrees with Jesus' "turn the other cheek" philosophy (which is hardly unique to Christianity) could call himself a "Christian," when in fact he does not believe in the "Christ" at all--at best he's a "Jesusist."

Besides the matter of semantic correctness, though, there's the issue of the confusion that gets promoted when people who believe widely different things choose to define their beliefs using the same word. What is someone supposed to think you believe when you tell them you're a "Christian"? What would you think I believed if I told you that I was a "Christian"? You seem to want to broaden the meaning of Christianity to make it equivalent to Jesusism, when in fact the crucial distinction between the two is the "Christ" nature--Christianity is a religion, whereas Jesusism is a non-religious philosophy.

That's the point of the Protestant "denomination" system, after all--a "naming" system for differences of interpretation. If your beliefs differ from those of every other denomination, you're free to start your own and give it a new name. But it would only be a Christian denomination if it held to the most fundamental tenets of Christianity, namely the belief in Jesus as the Christ. If you violate those fundamental tenets, then what you have is either a wholly different religion or a non-religious philosophy (depending on whether you posit the existence of any Supreme Being).

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MaliciousMonkey
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Reged: 05/23/06
Posts: 15
Re: Da Vinci Code Movie Discussion new [Re: bankjc]
      #7987 - 06/06/06 05:39 PM

Quote:

bankjc said:* Fache - Since when was Fache Opus Dei? He was Catholic, yes.. but Opus Dei. Adds an interesting dimmension, doesn't it? I'm not quite sure I understand why. Any suggestions?



I think it was changed in the movie because the Fache-Opus-Dei plot is easier to film in the time limit than the Fache-gung-ho-police-officer plot. I still don't understand how the movie plot works, though. I got the impression that Aringarosa tipped Fache off that Langdon confessed to the murder? Why? How does Aringarosa even know who Langdon is?

--------------------
Ook!

Edited by MaliciousMonkey (06/06/06 05:44 PM)

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bankjc
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Reged: 06/06/06
Posts: 21
Re: Da Vinci Code Movie Discussion new [Re: MaliciousMonkey]
      #7992 - 06/06/06 11:47 PM

Quote:

MaliciousMonkey said:
Quote:

bankjc said:* Fache - Since when was Fache Opus Dei? He was Catholic, yes.. but Opus Dei. Adds an interesting dimmension, doesn't it? I'm not quite sure I understand why. Any suggestions?



I think it was changed in the movie because the Fache-Opus-Dei plot is easier to film in the time limit than the Fache-gung-ho-police-officer plot. I still don't understand how the movie plot works, though. I got the impression that Aringarosa tipped Fache off that Langdon confessed to the murder? Why? How does Aringarosa even know who Langdon is?




Yeah possibly I guess. I suppose I just always look for deeper hidden meanings etc - I always read too much into things!

Arras and Remarkable - I'm really enjoying your conversation re christianity etc.

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messiah
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Reged: 06/07/06
Posts: 3
Re: Da Vinci Code Movie Discussion new [Re: bankjc]
      #8010 - 06/07/06 06:54 PM

Quote:

I always read too much into things!



Don't we all?

/M

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ash
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Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: Bombay India
Re: Da Vinci Code Movie Discussion new [Re: Arras]
      #8025 - 06/08/06 09:40 PM

Hi Arras,Remarkable

Virgin birth can be explained but still that explanation too will go against Christian Dogma because in my journey since DVC happened two years back I have come to understand the whole catholic dogma is based on concept that Christ is unique .And largely Christianity does not draw from any earlier traditions.If virgin birth is explained Christ will become like few other great men before him and not unique.This is the whole catch.
My explanation is a lot of knowledge was lost during dark ages in west and after Mongol invasion in central asia.Only after renaissance knowledge was considered important . A few ancient secrets we have rediscovered maybe few are lost forever. In Indian scriptures definately dating before christ( A lot many scriptures cannot be dated so this) Ayonij birth is described. Translation of Ayonij is roughly birth that is non-vaginal or where a woman's vagina was not used.In Bhagiratha's book minute details of achieving such birth are given. Bhagirath himself was Ayonij,so were Karna ,Draupadi and Drishtadyumna.But if Christ's birth was achieved in this fashion then he becomes like a few others so none of the christians will believe it.
Best idea is leave them with their faith in peace provided they dont try to convert your kin.
This whole debate came about because thats what they did over 2000 years.To wipe out other religion like Hellenic,Asatru every might was used right from military muscle to economic power.If Christ was really son of god why Roman Catholic Church had to use economic power to convert followers of Asatru from Iceland in as late as 1000 a.d.
This question as to if Christ was married so what ? was bothering me.As I went on reading I got the answer.If truly makes a difference because his celibacy is important ,it keeps the idea of original sin in context.Also his virgin birth is important that keeps the idea of him dying for other people's sins in context.
I hope I have understood this correctly.If not do let me know the two of you. Arras sure is becoming my Guru ha ha ha

Ash

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Arras
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Reged: 05/24/04
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Re: Da Vinci Code Movie Discussion new [Re: ash]
      #8031 - 06/09/06 09:22 AM

Quote:

ash said:
In Indian scriptures definately dating before christ( A lot many scriptures cannot be dated so this) Ayonij birth is described. Translation of Ayonij is roughly birth that is non-vaginal or where a woman's vagina was not used.In Bhagiratha's book minute details of achieving such birth are given. Bhagirath himself was Ayonij,so were Karna ,Draupadi and Drishtadyumna.




The concept of someone "not born of a woman" or "not born of a womb" is a very old mythological and literary device, and it certainly predates Christ. Greek mythology, for example, has it that Zeus spawned his daughter Athena from his forehead. Other mythological figures are claimed to have been born out of clay, out of fire, out of water or air, and other "miraculous" ways. Even Adam and Eve were not "born" in the usual sense, as God simply created them. This was not a new concept to anyone alive at the time of Christ's birth--indeed, the Israelites had the book of Genesis to remind them of the precedent.

What was different about the virgin birth, though, was that it was to all appearances a normal human pregnancy and birth, only the conception method was different. God did not create his Son out of nothing (as He had done with Adam), or out of a part of another person's body (as He had done with Eve), He apparently just impregnated Mary by miraculous means (an angel came to her) and let the pregnancy proceed normally from there. Jesus was "born of a woman" and "born of a womb" it's just the seed that was divine.

Even that concept was far from unique at the time. The Greek myths from thousands of years earlier told plenty of stories about gods having sexual intercourse with mortal women and bearing children who were "demi-gods," such as Heracles/Hercules.

In fact, the Nicaean Council drew upon a fair number of these pre-existing myths when concocting the "virgin birth" story. Consider:
  • Gautama Buddha, born of the virgin Maya, circa 600 BC.
  • Dionysus, born of a virgin in a stable, turned water into wine.
  • Quirrnus, early Roman saviour, born of a virgin.
  • Attis, born of the virgin Nama, circa 200 BC.
  • Indra, born of a virgin, circa 700 BC.
  • Adonis, born of the virgin Ishtar.
  • Krishna, born of the virgin Devaki, circa 1200 BC.
  • Zoroaster, born of a virgin, circa 1500-1200 BC.
  • Mithra, born of a virgin (on December 25), circa 600 BC.

Mithra in particular was probably the closest inspiration. See if this sounds familiar:

Quote:


Born in a stable to a virgin, birthday celebrated on 25 December, died and reborn, Passover celebrated around Easter, whose rites of worship involved the ingestion of food and drink that were symbolic of eating the flesh of Mithra, and all this 600 years before the birth of Christ. Also included were rites of baptism, the belief in immortality, resurrection, a judgement at the end between Heaven and Hell, and a saviour who died and was resurrected to act as a mediator between man and God.





Of course, if anyone were to point out that the Christ story sounded an awful lot like Mithra's story, the Nicaeans had a desperate answer--it was "obviously" a plot by the devil, who went back in time to create Mithra in order to cause people to doubt Christ's divine nature.

Quote:


This question as to if Christ was married so what ? was bothering me.As I went on reading I got the answer.If truly makes a difference because his celibacy is important ,it keeps the idea of original sin in context.Also his virgin birth is important that keeps the idea of him dying for other people's sins in context.




Right. In order to be the Christ (and not merely a human man), Jesus had to be conceived without sin, so that he could be a divine and pure being. He also had to live a life entirely without sin himself, in order for his sacrifice on the cross to be meaningful--he took responsibility for all human sins upon himself in those final moments, in order to spare those humans who choose to believe in him thereafter (and thus be "redeemed"). If Jesus had had sex with anyone, he would have committed a carnal sin and thus been "impure," tainted by original sin himself. That, in turn, would have made his sacrifice on the cross a lot less meaningful, since he'd have been doomed to suffer for his own sins anyway.

Quote:

Arras sure is becoming my Guru ha ha ha




Now that's a scary thought!

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ash
journeyman


Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: Bombay India
Re: Da Vinci Code Movie Discussion new [Re: Arras]
      #8036 - 06/09/06 04:07 PM

Arras

Here give me a break Gautam Buddha was NOT born of a virgin.King Shudhhodhan and his queen were married.Again Siddhartha as he was named then was not the first son either,he was the second.Before complete renunciation he was himself married to Yashodhara and had 08 year old son.

Ditto goes about Krishna. Vasudev and Devaki had 07 children before Krishna. Krishna was 8th child.As per Prophecy he turned out to be nemesis of Kamsa the villian King.
There are bedtime stories I have grown up with ,so I know my mythology perfectly. Plus Buddha was a historical man son of a man who reached divinity through his own Karma.I am practicing buddhist I have stated on this forum earlier,though born a Hindu.I will still be Hindu also as no one can ex-communicate me and I belong to the Brahmins ha ha ha so no one can decide me as Heretic either.
Done be a Guru ....I know a Shishya like me is definately scary

Ash

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ash
journeyman


Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: Bombay India
Re: Da Vinci Code Movie Discussion new [Re: ash]
      #8039 - 06/09/06 05:33 PM

Hey

And I should have been more explicit about Ayonij. Well I agree Mahabharata is a myth.But Bhagirath was a real man who wrote texts just like Bhaskara or Aryabhatta wrote.He actually describes how a woman can be impragnated without having intercourse. Goes into nitty gritties.But as usual here the problem is very old sansrit is difficult to read and researches have to depend on later commentaries.
I feel this could be among the lot of knowledge that was lost .
Maybe Mother Mary was impragnated using such techniques.But this explanation does not help catholic cause.
As for angel visiting her.Does it not sound so much like how all the five pandavas were born where Kunti summoned various forces of nature ,became pregnant,carried it full term and gave birth to 05 sons.But then Kunti and Pandavas are a myth.They did not actually exist . Christ did exist.
What a Royal mess.You can neither call him mythical god of scriptures nor can call him a simple man who reached divinity.Wow no wonder Dan manages to touch inner chord of so many people
Ash

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Arras
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Posts: 263
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Re: Da Vinci Code Movie Discussion new [Re: ash]
      #8040 - 06/09/06 05:43 PM

Quote:

ash said:
Here give me a break Gautam Buddha was NOT born of a virgin.King Shudhhodhan and his queen were married.




Married, yes, but remember that our definition of a "virgin birth" does not mean that the mother had never had sex before, it simply means that the child was not conceived as a result of sexual intercourse. In the case of Maya:

Quote:


Queen Maya and King Suddhodhana did not have children for twenty years into their marriage. One day however, according to legend, Queen Maya dreamt of a white elephant entering her side, and became pregnant. According to Buddhist tradition, the Buddha-to-be was residing as a Bodhisattva in the Tusita heaven, and decided to take the shape of a white elephant to be reborn, for the last time, on Earth.





And so Buddha can claim a "virgin birth" for the same reason that Jesus can--he was conceived by supernatural means. Whether his mother had had any previous children has no bearing on the matter--the "virgin" quality refers to the fact that the child was conceived without sexual intercourse.

Quote:

Ditto goes about Krishna. Vasudev and Devaki had 07 children before Krishna. Krishna was 8th child.




Once again, though, the suggestion is that Vasudeva was not the one who impregnated Devaki--that was done (supernaturally) by Vishnu, supposedly, since Krishna is considered to be an incarnation of Vishnu, and a sun god in his own right. From the Wikipedia entry for Devaki:

Quote:

It was believed that Krishna was born not from a sexual connection between Devaki and Vasudeva, but was transferred to Devaki's womb.




In a more general sense, most Mother Goddesses have traditionally been referred to as "virgins" as a means of recognizing that their divine nature is not subject to being sullied by their (vital) roles in the procreation process. It's similar to the Christian concept of original sin: if these Mother Goddesses were stripped of their virgin status once they gave birth to a child, there would be no way for gods to beget other gods. The convenient solution was to decide that Mother Goddesses remained virgins no matter how much sex they had. On that note, you might find this article of interest.

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Arras
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Re: Da Vinci Code Movie Discussion new [Re: ash]
      #8041 - 06/09/06 06:14 PM

Quote:

ash said:
Christ did exist. What a Royal mess.You can neither call him mythical god of scriptures nor can call him a simple man who reached divinity.




Well, Jesus existed, and there are various documents from that era to support that fact (the Romans were decent bookkeepers if nothing else). Whether he was the Christ (i.e. the Son of God) is a matter of faith. Remember that Jesus himself never claimed to be the Son of God, the Christ, the Messiah, or anything divine. At best, he referred to himself as the "son of man." It was the First Nicaean Council (almost 400 years after Jesus' death) that decided to make Jesus the Son of God, and mucked with a lot of the scriptures to suit their contemporary political needs. They worked out the virgin birth story, the Immaculate Conception, and stole the concept of "Hell" and a "devil" from various other religious cults (e.g. Zoroaster and Mithra), and added them to the scriptures they were writing.

Essentially, the version of Christianity that is understood and accepted today was selectively edited and embellished in the Fourth Century by the folks on the Nicaean Council. It then got further distorted in translations (from Aramaic) to Greek and then Latin, with individual scribes left to interpret the best ways to convey the meaning of a given word from one language to another. Worse, when a scribe encountered something that didn't make sense (such as when a previous translator screwed up and chose the wrong word or phrase), he would ponder ways to reconcile the nonsense with the rest of the story, often inventing entire passages to smooth over the rough edges. There was no "consistent" version of the Bible until the arrival of the printing press centuries later, but unfortunately Gutenberg's Bible and the English "King James" version incorporated many of the translation errors that accumulated along the way. Today you can find dozens if not hundreds of different versions of the Bible, each interpreted and edited in different ways to suit new schools of thought and/or ideological agendas.

In short, the Bible as we know it today is a patchwork of mistranslated nonsense, and any attempt to make literal sense of it is doomed to fail. To understand it, you need to trace the history of the document and understand where the changes were made and why those changes were made. Unfortunately there's no pristine original sitting in a museum anywhere, so we can't go back to the Aramaic source (though the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gnostic Gospels are close).

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