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8549176320abc
enthusiast


Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 219
Loc: UK
David Irving
      #7347 - 04/06/06 03:35 AM

Does anyone know about David Irving?(see his article on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving). He was imprisoned in Austria for holding and expresing the illegal opinion that the holocaust was not as bloody as it is belived on February 28th, Irving questioned the Holocaust, asking "Given the ruthless efficiency of the Germans, if there was an extermination programme to kill all the Jews, how come so many survived?" He claimed that the number of people gassed in Auschwitz was relatively small, and that his earlier claims that there had been no gassing at all had been a "methodological error." According to Irving "You could say that millions died, but not at Auschwitz.

Please sign this petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/DavidI/

I hope this kicks a debate off.

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Governments offer us safety for our freedom. It is by seeing this safety as false that we are freed.

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AAnnAArchyAdministrator
Gifted Procrastinator


Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
Loc: Las Vegas
Re: David Irving new [Re: 8549176320abc]
      #7351 - 04/06/06 05:10 AM

No thanks. Many of my extended family members were killed in the Holocaust (my mother was lucky to escape with her life when she left Germany at the age of 11), and even though I don't know how I feel about the "thought" crimes, there's no way I'm signing anything to free a Holocaust denier. It makes my skin crawl.

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8549176320abc
enthusiast


Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 219
Loc: UK
Re: David Irving new [Re: AAnnAArchy]
      #7352 - 04/06/06 07:54 AM

Yay debate!!

He didn't deny the holocaust just the capacity of Auschwitz to do what it has been claimed to have done. He said that the gas chambers were not operation during the war. This is not a denial of the holocaust.

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Governments offer us safety for our freedom. It is by seeing this safety as false that we are freed.

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AAnnAArchyAdministrator
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Reged: 10/20/03
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Re: David Irving new [Re: 8549176320abc]
      #7353 - 04/06/06 08:15 AM

Have you seen pictures of those who "survived"? A couple more months and they wouldn't have survived either. And no, I have no desire to debate any aspect of the Holocaust. I don't care which ovens had what capacity.

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8549176320abc
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Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 219
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Re: David Irving new [Re: AAnnAArchy]
      #7354 - 04/06/06 08:41 AM

Yes I recognize that the Holocaust happened and don't have any more desire than you to debate it but why should a man be jailed over what amounts to a technicality in his beliefs? And why is it that every time I mention this in a forum the first person to respond has relatives in the holocaust?

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Governments offer us safety for our freedom. It is by seeing this safety as false that we are freed.

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Arras
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Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
Re: David Irving new [Re: AAnnAArchy]
      #7358 - 04/06/06 10:31 AM

Quote:

AAnnAArchy said:
... even though I don't know how I feel about the "thought" crimes, there's no way I'm signing anything to free a Holocaust denier.




There's no question that Irving is a piece of work, but even his academic detractors don't want to see him behind bars in this case. They would much rather see his scholarship properly refuted to undermine his credibility and set the record straight than to have laws enacted that restrict what one can and can't write about.

In a larger sense, this encompasses every form of "hate crimes" legislation. The trouble is that if you make it illegal to write materials that incite hatred against another race/religion/sex/etc., then you make it impossible to examine your own cultural biases and bigotry. What starts out sounding reasonable ends up on a slippery slope when you begin to realize that most of the world's religious texts advocate mistrust, hatred, and even violence toward those of other religions. The Bible is a classic candidate for banning under hate crimes laws, for instance, as is the Koran. The "intolerance" most religious texts preach is such that if you were to write those same words today and tried to get them published, you'd land yourself in prison.

Unfortunately, banning (or criminalizing) anything only makes it more appealing on the subversive market. If some government censor tells you you can't see/read/hear something, doesn't that just make you more interested in the material? You might not have cared about the material before, but now that it's being denied to you it's got the allure of the forbidden. I'm quite sure that Irving's book sales shot up as a result of his being thrown in jail--quite the opposite of what his detractors would want. The same thing happens when you make it illegal to deny the holocaust--it makes people wonder whether there might be something to all these arguments that the holocaust never happened. It's human nature.

In my opinion, hate crimes legislation is just as offensive as the hate crimes themselves. If you take the blanket wording of such laws, at their core the crime is the incitement to commit a crime. A book or a speech or a video might inspire someone to go out and cause harm to someone else. How many stories does that encompass, if you cast the net wide enough? Telling the story of a great injustice perpetrated against People X by People Y is bound to stir in the reader an antipathy toward the villains of the piece (People Y), and some of those readers may be moved to the point of violence. Does that mean the story should be banned from ever being told?

At what point does our personal responsibility as readers/listeners kick in? There are similar arguments being made about violence in films, television programs, and video games, after all. And there are always a few people (usually with some pre-existing mental illness) who take these "inspirations" too far, leading to reactionary calls for widespread censorship. If I commit a crime as a result of an inspiration I received from a book, a movie, a video game, or a speech, the responsibility for committing that crime still lies with me. I always had the power of choice, and nothing "compelled" me to do the deed. Blaming the authors, directors, and speakers in this case is a cop-out, an attempt to escape the ultimate personal responsibility that comes with being a human being.

The way to combat the literature of hatred is, as most of Irving's critics seem to agree, to take it on its own merits and subject it to the same kind of peer review that any other work of non-fiction should face. If he's made factual errors, point them out. If he's made unsubstantiated claims, highlight them. If he's made logical errors, shine a spotlight on them. If his scholarship is revealed to be weak, he'll gain a reputation for being a crackpot and his book sales will drop off to the levels of the other cranks who subsist on a fringe following.

In sum, the issue of censorship is much bigger than David Irving, and whatever you think of him or what he believes, understand that imprisoning him sets a very dangerous precedent. "First they came for the holocaust deniers, but I was not a holocaust denier, so I remained silent..." If this is allowed to stand, it won't be long before "dissident thinkers" of other stripes end up on the wrong side of the law. Freedom of speech (and implicitly of thought) must extend to those we disagree with, or it's worth nothing at all.

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SephiaModerator
Supreme Goddess


Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
Re: David Irving new [Re: Arras]
      #7362 - 04/06/06 12:42 PM

hmmm... As much as the idea of signing anything in his favor makes me feel weird, I have to admit that this is a good point. Legal systems were made to protect those holding minority views.

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"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind

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AAnnAArchyAdministrator
Gifted Procrastinator


Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
Loc: Las Vegas
Re: David Irving new [Re: Arras]
      #7363 - 04/06/06 01:38 PM

Arras
Quote:

In sum, the issue of censorship is much bigger than David Irving, and whatever you think of him or what he believes, understand that imprisoning him sets a very dangerous precedent. "First they came for the holocaust deniers, but I was not a holocaust denier, so I remained silent..." If this is allowed to stand, it won't be long before "dissident thinkers" of other stripes end up on the wrong side of the law. Freedom of speech (and implicitly of thought) must extend to those we disagree with, or it's worth nothing at all.




Oh, I know all that, but I'm still not signing for this particular person. I'm not the ACLU who has to defend people, even if they don't like them. Besides, remember, I live in the US, we no longer have freedom of speech here either.

If it helps, I was definitely not in favor of the pedophile in the US who was imprisoned because he wrote his sick fantasies down in a personal diary. Did not act on them, did not publish them in public, just wrote them down at home.

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8549176320abc
enthusiast


Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 219
Loc: UK
Re: David Irving new [Re: AAnnAArchy]
      #7366 - 04/06/06 08:03 PM

Is that a signature Arras? *begs*

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Governments offer us safety for our freedom. It is by seeing this safety as false that we are freed.

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8549176320abc
enthusiast


Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 219
Loc: UK
Re: David Irving new [Re: 8549176320abc]
      #8263 - 07/28/06 06:17 AM

A quick update. 203 signatures this far - scarily a lot of people with subtle (and not so) white supremist referneces in thier names.

--------------------
Governments offer us safety for our freedom. It is by seeing this safety as false that we are freed.

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