davincidiva
stranger
Reged: 07/12/05
Posts: 6
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Thanks I may just check it out. I had no idea there where so many books and material on the subject matter. One item leads to two others which branches off and leads to yet another theory and idea. I feel as if I have only scratched the surface. Can't wait to dive deeper.
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dixielovebutton
stranger
Reged: 07/16/05
Posts: 2
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
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I have found the material in HBHG to be hard going too. It is taking me forever to read it and then reread some passages to make sure I get it right.
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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Hello EVDebs,
Mr Hancock's book TS&TS does not make a case for the Grail being a metaphor (or otherwise)for the Ark of the Covenant.
Any inferences by authors that Freemasonry is a continuation of the Knights Templar is pure speculation. Any suggestion of a connection between the Ark of the Covenant, the Knights Templar, and Freemasonry is downright ludicrous.
As for this 'thing' called the Grail, it remains an abiding mystery with many attributes.
Rosey 
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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RoseyORyan
Sorry to say but Graham Hancock's The Sign and The Seal DOES make the case for the Holy Grail legend being a metaphor for the Ark of The Covenant. Aside from reading the TS&TS, please see also Templar Gold by Patrick Byrne reviewed at
http://www.seekerbooks.com/prod/9781577330998/
and ask why this comment is made in the review:
""Not since Hancock's Sign and the Seal has so plausible and logical a theory been put forth involving the Templars and the Ark of the Covenant. In fact the publication of this book may well see many Hancock supporters changing their thinking, including Mr. Hancock himself." Stephen Dafoe, Grand Historian for the Sovereign Great Priory of Canada Knights Templar "
It seems there IS a connection with KT, Freemasonry and the Ark.
BTW, ever wonder why the Acacia tree (source of Shittim wood as mentioned in the Bible) is VERY relevent to the Knights Templar and modern day Freemasons ? Here's why
http://www.glnb.ca/historian/history_aug_04.html
and
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=709&letter=A
Also, in TS&TS it shows that medieval stonemasons carved into the Cathedral at Chartres a strange reference to Ethiopia...and in Ethiopia itself remnants of Templar symbols show up at places where the Ark is reported to have been kept.
Please re-read The Sign and The Seal more carefully ! Oh, and this review of Templar Gold also includes historic linkages to follow
http://www.templarhistory.com/ark.html
verifying my contentions. My only disagreement with Byrne is WHERE the Ark of the Covenant ended up. His speculation is somewhere in Europe; Hancock's is that it is in Axum, Ethiopia. Either way, the Grail Legend links up with the Knights Templar and by extension modern-day Freemasons.
Edited by EVDebs (08/06/05 09:02 AM)
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Dazzle
addict
Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 484
Loc: UK
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Do you not think you are taking all this crap too seriously? The more you pore over one book the more it seems to be becoming fact to you instead of just a specualtive read.
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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Dazzle, It's not ME who's taking this too seriously, it's those who believe that the Grail is a metaphor for the Ark of the Covenant and all that that entails. If you've read the news lately you've noticed that the muslim world is very touchy about the Dome of the Rock/Al Aqsa Mosque complex, which we call the Temple Mount. They are SO upset because of the belief many have in a Third Temple, which would require the Ark of the Covenant be restored to the Holy of Holies in a restored Third Temple. This is playing with dynamite if you get my point.
This is not 'crap' as you put it. Please read what Al Jezeera has to say and see if you agree:
"Jewish groups: Raze mosques, rebuild temple"
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/58087655-FE76-4764-9598-A952E08FEFC8.htm
The trouble is that the current US President's foreign policy in the Middle East is based upon supporters who seem to favor just such a policy in order for the Second Coming to occur (the antichrist must sit in a Third Temple under the 'futurist' end-times eschatology to fulfill their interpretation of scripture).
George Monbiot of your Guardian has written about this
"Their beliefs are bonkers, but they are at the heart of power - US Christian fundamentalists are driving Bush's Middle East policy"
www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html
but even he mistakenly takes the research for this 'futurist' doctrine back only to the "19th century", when it was really originated by Jesuit Francisco Ribera in the 1500's...and, well, you've already read my other posts on this I would assume so no use flogging a dead horse.
Yes, I suppose the killing in the Middle East based upon misreading of scripture IS crappy, so I have to agree with you...but people ARE getting killed over this 'speculation' as you called it. Maybe that's why I wish to speak out albeit on a little known Dan Brown blog ! Who'da thunk it.
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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Al Jezeera is not always the most reiable news source...
--------------------
"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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Impact of Millennium on the Holy Land
January 7, 2000
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week319/cover.html
"LAWTON: But there's a problem. The site is already occupied, and has been for more than a millennium, by Muslim holy places. Salomon says they must be removed, but he doesn't like to be asked how.
Mr. SALOMON: Everyone is asking me this question, you know. People like to hear that I would say, "Oh, we shall explode the buildings." And it is not a fair question.
LAWTON: The point, he says, is that God will make it happen, hopefully through a Muslim change of heart.
Mr. SALOMON: I pray that they by us -- by themself, they will take the two buildings. We can help them; you know, Israel has wonderful engineers. And as they did in Egypt, when they moved old temples from place to place, they will take it, and we shall help them to rebuild it in Mecca, stone by stone.
LAWTON: The relatively small temple movement has some surprising supporters: Christians who believe the temple will be rebuilt before the second coming of Jesus. One of them is Mississippi farmer and Pentecostal minister Clyde Lott, who's raising red heifers that can be shipped to Israel and bred there. He says he's following directives in the biblical book of Numbers..."
US Public Broadcasting System IS pretty reliable, and if you read the article it is quoting real opinions. Plus no question that the Temple Mount Faithful group exists; are you doubting that ? The BBC is pretty reliable I hear
Eyewitness: Inside al-Aqsa
by Martin Asser
BBC News Online correspondent in Jerusalem
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1883472.stm
"Memories are long here, and one of the major events of recent history was when Australian Christian fundamentalist Michael Rohan tried to burn down al-Aqsa in 1969, causing considerable damage. The Israeli army and police are there to prevent any similar attempt, which conventional wisdom says, if successful, could spark a war dragging in the whole Muslim world....There is also a strong suspicion among those present that the whole Israeli state - and not just the few Jewish extremists who say it openly - wishes to demolish the Islamic monuments and replace them with a new Temple."
Hmmm. New Temple means a Third Temple. Did you think I wasn't being straight with you, Sephia ?
"
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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I don't doubt that this movement exists. I doubt it is very big or influential.
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"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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"Their beliefs are bonkers, but they are AT THE HEART OF POWER - US Christian fundamentalists are driving Bush's Middle East policy"
www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1195568,00.html
Speaks of the Texas State Republican party convention:
"Thus fortified, they turned to the real issue: the affairs of a small state 7,000 miles away. It was then, according to a participant, that the "screaming and near fist fights" began....
"In the United States, SEVERAL MILLION people have succumbed to an extraordinary delusion. In the 19th century, two immigrant preachers cobbled together a series of unrelated passages from the Bible to create what appears to be a consistent narrative: Jesus will return to Earth when certain preconditions have been met. The first of these was the establishment of a state of Israel. The next involves Israel's occupation of the rest of its "biblical lands" (most of the Middle East), and the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the site now occupied by the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa mosques. The legions of the antichrist will then be deployed against Israel, and their war will lead to a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. The Jews will either burn or convert to Christianity, and the Messiah will return to Earth.
What makes the story so appealing to Christian fundamentalists is that before the big battle begins, all "true believers" (ie those who believe what they believe) will be lifted out of their clothes and wafted up to heaven during an event called the Rapture. Not only do the worthy get to sit at the right hand of God, but they will be able to watch, from the best seats, their political and religious opponents being devoured by boils, sores, locusts and frogs, during the seven years of Tribulation which follow.
The true believers are now seeking to bring all this about. This means staging confrontations at the old temple site (in 2000, three US Christians were deported for trying to blow up the mosques there), sponsoring Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, demanding ever more US support for Israel, and seeking to provoke a final battle with the Muslim world/Axis of Evil/United Nations/ European Union/France or whoever the legions of the antichrist turn out to be."
Thomas Friedman worries about this in his prizewinning book From Beirut to Jerusalem and CBS News' 60 Minutes interviewed high ranking Israeli government officials who are very concerned. It is NOT a small problem since large numbers of Americans, Israelis, and others around the world believe likewise.
I believe Israel has a right to exist and that the UN resolutions creating Israel after WWII are legitimate.
I do not believe in 'eretz' Israel or a Third Temple, however, as being a necessity to Judaism or to evangelical Christianity.
The Left Behind-reading rapture-believing evangelical Christians have a lot of errant scriptual beliefs that are leading the world right now. President Bush is 'one of theirs' according to a PBS Frontline documentary The Jesus Factor
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/
Small group, fringe movement ? No.
BTW, take note of Monbiot's mistakenly saying that this all began with two 19th Century peachers. Again, it started with Jesuits trying to deflect attention away from their church during the Counter-Reformation (Francisco Ribera et al in the 16th Century).
Edited by EVDebs (08/14/05 09:07 AM)
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