AAnnAArchy
Gifted Procrastinator
Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
Loc: Las Vegas
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An interesting read -- check out this month's National Geographic
Not only is there the interesting Darwin stuff, but there's also a pull-out map of the world. It has some interesting markings on it that indicate fires, lights, etc., in the world.
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Jesse
stranger
Reged: 02/13/06
Posts: 7
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When the idea of a world without religion is discussed, it never fails to be mentioned that people would be depressed or unable to live without it... the reason this is a question is because people don't know what life is like without God on their side. So, of course the idea of life without religion is a scary one for them. Personally I think we would be much better off, but I am not someone who depends on it for day-to-day support, so it would not effect me at all..
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Isabelle
journeyman
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 54
Loc: florida
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Well if we take religion out of the picture, it wouldn’t affect my life one bit, but the part that puzzles me is finding a good reason why not to do bad things. Most of us grew up with the terrifying feeling of going to hell if we brake any of the commandments, well if there is no hell or god for that matter, than what is a good reason for us to be good citizens? Are morals and law rely enough to raise caring and compassionate children?
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Arras
enthusiast
Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
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Quote:
Isabelle said: Are morals and law rely enough to raise caring and compassionate children?
Always an interesting question. You might want to follow the sub-thread of this thread that starts around here where we discussed so-called "natural morality" and the "social contract" a couple of years ago. You may find it interesting
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SoDrktheCnofMan5
stranger
Reged: 02/05/06
Posts: 13
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I would much rather live in a world without science. Look at it in from the oppisite end...yes, religion has caused chaos, but science has too. If there was never science, and this world was strictly religous, there would be no atheists, so there would be no chaos. If we talk about Christianity, the Bible gives an explaination for everything. Nothing in the Bible has ever been disproved. If anything in the Bible was proved false, the whole Bible would be false. A lot of people might look at my post and say "Nothing proved false? Look where you're typing this!" But it's true. There is no definite proof that Dan Brown's theories are right.(Don't get me wrong, I love Dan Brown's works. I think they are excellent.) Science, however, has holes. There are things in science that still have no answer. Evolution vs. Creation. Evolutionists still have no solid answers. Evolution is based on faith---faith that the earth and its inhabitants were formed over millions of years. Creationists have answers to everything. Creation is based on faith---faith that God created everything in 6 days. Everyone will have their own opinion. I go with religion. A hole free world, where there are answers to everything. Some people will go with science, for many different reasons. Some being they find religion too hard to beleive, or they don't know much about any particular faith.
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Monakos
stranger
Reged: 02/18/06
Posts: 8
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Reply to SoDrk,
SoDrk
I'm curious about your postings. If you say that the world would be better off without Science, how would you be alive today? You depend on the knowledge of science to type the very words you write on this forum. You probably needed madical treatment at some stage and will probably need to again. You must have learned to count and write - so where would you be without Science? Someone had to study/learn something to teach you. Science is simply "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena." What could be wrong with that? Belief systems by definition are blind, meaning "unable to see." How could being blind be better than knowing or seeking to know something? I don't know if you are Christian, but I seem to remember Jesus saying, "If the blind lead the blind they will both fall into the pit" or something similar. So why do religions preach blind belief if they consider they have "the answers" but in fact don't really know anything and are too blind to see anything. If you choose to believe things then you choose to ignore and are therefore ingorant, meaning, "lacking education or knowledge." Ignorance is a choice, learn or don't learn. You choose and you choose to pay the price. I can agree with you that any science has holes, what subject doesn't? But at least the principle of understanding that you don't fully understand something is something that allows you to accept that fact (that you don't know) and you can then go and find out something better in future.This is called learning. Blind belief on the other hand allows you to presume that you know something (or allows you to not care enough about being deficient in knowledge i.e. ignorant)whilst presuming that you know something you in fact do not know. You say that you would "go with religion," but with what religion(s), as there are so many and they are so often diametrically opposed to each other and their followers are often so willing to kill each other over what they profess is true but in not so in fact? Do you follow the main variant of Chritian religions (Roman Catholicism), which decrees and demands that their followers blindly believe that they are physically drinking the blood and eating the flesh of the son of their deity? Or do not believe that and belive that they are wrong and protest that fact by being Protestant? Or so you follow the many variants of Islam that feel "offended" about cartoons whilst they will make no protestations or do anything about those of their belief systems who fly planes into buildings full of defenceless civilians? And these believers do it by believing that their god wishes them to do so. Can you see how the average man or woman in the street finds such blind beliefs abhorent to any sense of decent-thinking humanity? I'm not saying that Science can't be used to negative effect; of course it can, and is. But that is the choice that people who decide to do make and they too are following that blind belief that they can justify the outcome of using knowledge to do harm. Knowledge is a tool. Tools can be used to build or demolish. The only difference in effect is how you choose to use the tool.
Regards Monakos
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Monakos
stranger
Reged: 02/18/06
Posts: 8
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Isabelle posted:well if there is no hell or god for that matter, than what is a good reason for us to be good citizens?
Hi Isabelle,
I think that the faculty to feel the need to build something positive is rooted in the humanity in people. Those who are not fully human are not therefore humane i.e. concerned with the well-being of others.They are neither fully human or animal but exist somewhere in between i.e. they are in-humane.
They are only interested in doing what they think might be good for some reward, real or imagined. Humane people do good because they can work out the reality from the unreality. People need each other: that's a fact but others don't want to accept this and indulge in selfish behavours that they think should only benefit them.
If you feel the need to do right then you are made this way. If you don't you are not. It's simple really.A human being is human because he contains and exhibits humane traits and the reverse applies to those who are inhumane.
Regards
Monakos
Edited by Monakos (02/20/06 08:02 AM)
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Draven
stranger
Reged: 02/19/06
Posts: 5
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howdy, folks...
It regards to what SoDrktheCnofMan5 put forward, any form of belief in anything - whether it be religion, or science - has a tendancy to cause chaos. For example, for a religion t survive - and I mean no offence to any religion or religious person - they have had to create some form of Chaos.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with most morals in the Bible (Christianity is the only religion I'm really deeply familiar with), but I think that religion can twist people, and do horrific things to them - like Monakos said, 9/11 is a prime example of this, as was the Witch Burnings, various inquisitions, etc.
Also, Religion, in my opinion, (and again, I mean no offence) does not provide any answers. It states that the earth was made, animals were made, vegetation was made, humans were made - but the answer HOW it happened all relies on complete faith - we already know that everything got here somehow, but we don't know how, and Religion's answer is just as much a theory as evolution.
Science has holes, and there are questions that science has not yet answered, and yet it has provided more answers then religion, though it has clearly caused chaos as well - take Hiroshima and Nagasaki as examples, or Global Warming.
I think that Religion was a necessity before science, and until science has answered every question we could think of asking, Religion is a necessity for some people - not necessarily people that are afraid of the idea that we are alone, but more the people that want to believe that we are not.
I personally am both a scientific man, and a philosophical man. I don't believe that there is a god, largely because there is no proof for his/her existance, but I am perfectly willing to accept that there might be a god, simply because there is no evidence against his/her existance. And I also think that if there is a god, maybe he/she did make us all evolve from primordeal ooze. Maybe he/she did create the universe with a big bang. There is no reason to think that just because science proves something, it's taking anything away from Religion.
Sure, the Bible says that God made Eve from Adam's rib, but like I believe with many things in the bible, I believe that it is simply a metaphor - man is not complete without woman, and woman cannot exist without man - of course, it works both ways. My point is, I think that Religion and Science should go hand in hand - after all, if we did all evolve from a single celled organism skimming the surface of a stagnant pond, what made us evolve? What gave us the ability to think like no animal before us (to our knowledge) has?
I could not honestly say that my life would be the same without religion, and it certainly wouldn't be the same without science. I was born and raised a Christian by Christian parents, and despite being agnostic, it has fed a love and interest of/in religion my entire life, and has only increased the desire from my scientific side - the search for knowledge and truth.
Religion has not made me strive to be a better person, but it has strengthened me, even though I don't follow any particular faith.
And in response to "well if there is no hell or god for that matter, than what is a good reason for us to be good citizens?", there is no reason, in the grand scheme of things. In the cosmic sense, it doesn't matter in the slightest whether you take your neighbour's garbage out as a kind gesture, or if you scatter it across his/her lawn. But, you wouldn't like it if they did it to you, would you?
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Arras
enthusiast
Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
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Quote:
SoDrktheCnofMan5 said: I would much rather live in a world without science.
Are you sure about that? You realize, don't you, that the world you're describing would be roughly equivalent to the European Dark Ages, only in a perpetual, stagnant form? That's the best-case scenario, actually. The people of the Dark Ages at least had inherited the byproducts of scientific thinking from earlier ages, such as the geometry of the Greeks and mathematics of the Arabs, making possible such labour-saving inventions as the wheel, pulleys, and mills. If there had never been any scientific thought at all, your world would look more like the Stone Age.
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If there was never science, and this world was strictly religous, there would be no atheists, so there would be no chaos.
Atheists are no more the cause of "chaos" than any others who think differently from you. Your Utopia would only be possible in a world where everybody shared the same beliefs in the same things--i.e. the same religion. Even within the same religion we see divergent schools of thought--sects that differ in how exactly they interpret the scriptures of their faith. Among the Christians there are Catholics and many Protestant sects; among the Jews there's an entire range of orthodoxy; among the Muslims there are Sunnis, Shi'ites and many more varieties. Even if there were no atheists at all, you'd have "chaos" whenever people of different beliefs came together.
Whether it's "my god is better than your god," or "you're misguided and going to hell, but I can save you," differences of faith have been the root cause of more of the world's violent conflicts than anything else. It's the very fact that neither side can prove to the other that they're right (or wrong) that makes such conflicts inevitable--neither side can reason with the other where matters of blind faith are concerned.
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Science, however, has holes. There are things in science that still have no answer.
Certainly, but that doesn't mean those answers don't exist, or that science will never discover them. More of those "holes" get filled in every day because scientists are insatiably curious people determined to find those answers. They're not willing to throw up their hands and give up trying, saying, "let's just go with 'God did it'." Even those scientists who are also religious want to know how "God did it." They want to understand the mechanisms that God put in place.
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Evolutionists still have no solid answers. Evolution is based on faith---faith that the earth and its inhabitants were formed over millions of years.
Is this something you were taught in school? Whoever taught you that nonsense was scientifically ignorant, and should be fired, or at the very least ignored.
Evolution, like every other scientific model, is based on evidence, observation, and experiment, not "faith." Any scientist who put forth a theory based on elements that would need to be taken on "faith" would be utterly roasted by his scientific peers. The scientific method relies heavily on peer review, and the ability of independent researchers to reproduce the experiments of others. Models that can't be experimentally verified or independently reproduced end up getting discarded. A scientific model doesn't survive for 100+ years unless it has been confirmed repeatedly by independent researchers.
As a model, Evolution has proven itself to be extremely robust, contrary to the myths being spread by the Creation/Intelligent Design crowd. Much of our medical knowledge, in fact, stems from our understanding of Evolution, particularly where drugs and gene therapies are concerned. Understanding the process of genetic mutation--the key to the Evolution model--is what enables us to develop new flu shots to adapt to the evolving strains of influenza that appear every year. The fact that viruses like influenza demonstrably adapt from year to year in order to survive is a very compelling confirmation of the Evolution model.
Now, the Creationists/Intelligent Design folks love to talk about "the missing link" in the Evolution model, in the hope that it will spread doubt about the rest of the process. Their strategy is to point out one missing piece of the puzzle and use that to suggest that the whole puzzle is somehow invalid. This just illustrates a complete and utter lack of understanding of how the scientific method works.
Let's use that puzzle analogy for a moment (as I did in another thread around here a while back). Suppose that you're handed a bunch of puzzle pieces, but you don't know what the puzzle is supposed to look like. You start trying to fit pieces together, and gradually you start to see bits of what looks like an ocean, and bits that look like a setting sun, maybe a tropical island. As you start to see the pattern forming, it becomes easier to "guess" where the next pieces should go--the bits that look like part of the ocean don't belong in the middle of the sun, or in the middle of the island, so you can rule those out. Soon you get the puzzle almost finished--it's very "obviously" a sunset over a tropical island--except that a couple of puzzle pieces are missing in the middle of the ocean. You've got a pretty good "idea" what those missing pieces should look like, because you've seen the overall pattern of the puzzle. You'd expect them to have an ocean-like texture to them, though it's also possible that there might be a rowboat, a shark fin, or a rock sticking out of the water. In other words, you don't know for certain what those missing pieces will look like, but you've got a very reasonable guess, and if you found a couple of pieces between the couch cushions you could tell at a glance whether they're your missing pieces or not.
On the other hand, if the pieces you find in the couch cushions look like they're part of a human face, or a Ferrari, you'd rule them out--they're "obviously" not part of the same puzzle. That doesn't mean that your puzzle isn't a sunset over a tropical island, though, it just means you still haven't found the "right" missing pieces. And of course just because you're missing a couple of pieces doesn't change the fact that the overall pattern is a sunset over a tropical island.
With the Evolution model it's much the same situation--there are a few evidentiary gaps in the middle, due mostly to the fact that fossil evidence from certain periods of history are very rare. We see plausible evidence that the Evolution model worked before the gap, and after the gap, so the fact that there's a gap in the middle doesn't invalidate the model. Instead we can use our understanding of the model to interpolate and predict what the "missing piece" most likely was.
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doodoobutter
journeyman
Reged: 02/20/06
Posts: 70
Loc: New York City baby!
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Oooh! Great topic! This one's a toughie though...I'd have to say a world without religion. Science we just would not be able to live without. Look at how we as a race have progressed throughout the years. If we didn't have science, people would still be dying in their 30s. Although, you could see it the other way and think about how many people have been saved by their faith. Now that I think about it, faith is a really great thing as well. Me being a man of science, though, would make me choose a world without religion. Albeit since my grandparents died a few years ago, faith and religion have played a major role in my life, I'd still have to pick science over religion. If only we could merge the two into one huge thing...sciligion...? lol
-------------------- So dark the con of man...so dark indeed.
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