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Isabelle
journeyman


Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 54
Loc: florida
Re: Religion vs Science new [Re: doodoobutter]
      #6972 - 02/23/06 07:32 AM

yeah it does, but it's still funny, couse a lot of people got hyped up about the conversation and it ended up beeing a lost couse.

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Arras
enthusiast


Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
Re: Religion vs Science new [Re: Isabelle]
      #6977 - 02/23/06 09:09 AM

Quote:

Isabelle said:
a lot of people got hyped up about the conversation and it ended up beeing a lost couse.




I think it's important to realize that we have a few rather polarized threads on this forum, in which the whole point is to discuss/debate the merits of one side or the other. Any discussion about "Religion vs. Science" or "Do you Believe in God?" is going to get people defensive about their position. That's just one step away from "Christianity vs. Islam" or "Should the State of Israel Exist?" All of these topics might be fair game on a forum whose subject matter dwells so much upon religious ideas, but there's no doubt they'd end up in flame-wars without a lot of active moderation to keep things reasonably civil.

At the same time, though, I also think that some people come to these forums expecting everyone to be of the same mind about certain topics. They figure a community that calls itself "Cult of Dan Brown" must be filled with people who loved Dan Brown's books, and presumably agree with many of the ideas he raised in those books. They're shocked when they make what they assume is the "right" kind of introduction, praising Brown's books, and get hit over the head almost immediately by the anti-Brown camp for it, and then seem to decide never to return.

I suppose what I'm saying is that different people come to forums like this with different expectations and different interests. Some people are looking for a wholly-supportive community where they'll find that everyone thinks more or less the same way they do, and they can have their personal beliefs reinforced. Others come here looking for an engaging discussion of the subjects that Dan Brown has raised, either directly or indirectly, in his books, and they're willing (even eager) to debate them.

The folks who come here looking for universal agreement are invariably shocked when they encounter the folks here who are interested in debating the issues. Those people are looking for support for their own ideas, not exposure to new ideas or different points of view. They see debate as a form of unwanted conflict, a sign that something has gone horribly wrong with the discussion, and they find themselves hoping a moderator will quickly step in and smack down the ones with the ideas that threaten the uniformity of the group.

It's hard to keep a forum like this one "balanced," however. When too many of its members have similar beliefs and/or agree with one another on most things, debate gets stifled very quickly, and it becomes clear within a couple of postings who's in the minority. SoDrk got the impression, for instance, that most of the people in this community were "atheists," and that we were out to persecute Christians like him for their beliefs, or "convert" them to atheism.

The shame, really, is that while we have some very vocal people in this community, most of them seem to be of a similar mind on many of the issues we discuss here. While we're certainly not all atheists, I'd say it's pretty clear that most of us here are not born-again evangelical Christians, either. That whole side of the argument--the side of religion, of faith--seems to have very weak representation in this community. Those few who do speak up about their beliefs tend to get smacked down and made to feel generally unwelcome here--or just can't believe that anyone would dare to challenge their beliefs--so very few of them stick around.

As a result, those of us who really want to have friendly debates about these issues find themselves without people willing to take up the other side. I often find myself tempted to put on my Devil's Advocate hat to speak up for the missing side of the debate, if only to get people talking about the issues.

All of this brings us back to SoDrk and his brief visit to our community. Clearly he was not expecting his beliefs to be challenged the way they were in this thread, and while he was brave enough to voice his stand for the side of religion, his lack of understanding of science made it difficult for him to carry on any sort of rational debate about the topic. His age may have been a factor as well, since topics like Evolution are often not taught until later in high school as part of an (often optional) biology class. It's also possible that he lives in one of the jurisdictions that insists on teaching "Intelligent Design" in the science curriculum, such that Evolution is presented as "just another competing theory."

Whatever his reasons, I regret the fact that he decided to leave this community, and I feel largely responsible for his departure. In my eagerness to remedy his ignorance about science I clearly offended him, and that was never my intention. I had only hoped to clear up his acquired misconceptions about Evolution, but I can see from his statements about his faith's need for the Bible to be infallible that under those conditions it would always be an either-or proposition for him. To accept Evolution even as a possibility would have challenged the literal truth of the Bible, and that may well be a tenet of his sectarian faith. With such faiths there is no middle ground for compromise.

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doodoobutter
journeyman


Reged: 02/20/06
Posts: 70
Loc: New York City baby!
Re: Religion vs Science new [Re: Arras]
      #6978 - 02/23/06 12:13 PM

I agree, Arras. I think SoDrk just overreacted.

--------------------
So dark the con of man...so dark indeed.

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Isabelle
journeyman


Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 54
Loc: florida
Re: Religion vs Science new [Re: doodoobutter]
      #7004 - 02/24/06 03:37 AM

Arras I concur, but I don’t think you should feel guilty at all. He was obviously a child who needs a lot of growing up to do before he can understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion. He was probably brought up in a Christian family, and it came to a shock for him to realize that people have different opinions than his parents or the ones around him.

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doodoobutter
journeyman


Reged: 02/20/06
Posts: 70
Loc: New York City baby!
Re: Religion vs Science new [Re: Isabelle]
      #7008 - 02/24/06 08:48 AM

Nice point, Isa. That's exactly what I was thinking and is most likely what happened.

--------------------
So dark the con of man...so dark indeed.

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SephiaModerator
Supreme Goddess


Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
Re: Religion vs Science new [Re: doodoobutter]
      #7019 - 02/25/06 03:44 AM

Don't worry, Arras. I never really saw anything insulting in what you said, and I'd also say that SoDrk overreacted a bit. Still, if he is lurking about the forum, I hope he knows that no one meant to insult him or his beliefs.

--------------------
"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind

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AAnnAArchyAdministrator
Gifted Procrastinator


Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
Loc: Las Vegas
Re: Religion vs Science new [Re: Sephia]
      #7044 - 02/25/06 11:09 AM

Or her, or her beliefs. SoDrktheCnofMan5, come out, come out, wherever you are. You have a lot to learn at 14, but that doesn't mean that you're not welcome to discuss your opinions here.

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Remarkable
enthusiast


Reged: 09/30/05
Posts: 326
Re: Religion vs Science new [Re: AAnnAArchy]
      #7048 - 02/25/06 11:18 PM

I'd prefer to live in a world with both science and relgion in it.

Just my two cents.

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Isabelle
journeyman


Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 54
Loc: florida
Re: Religion vs Science [Re: Remarkable]
      #7053 - 02/26/06 03:56 AM

Well to me it seems like, people in general need both. If we look back in history every culture believed in some kind of a supreme power, and at the same time advanced scientifically. What seems strange and ironic to me though ,is the fact that science and religion always bumped heads.

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Arras
enthusiast


Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
Re: Religion vs Science [Re: Isabelle]
      #7059 - 02/26/06 05:30 PM

Quote:

Isabelle said:
What seems strange and ironic to me though, is the fact that science and religion always bumped heads.




One of the biggest misconceptions out there (as exemplified recently by SoDrk) is that scientists must be atheists. The idea that someone could be a fervently religious person and at the same time possess scientific curiosity just boggles the minds of many people. They just don't understand how the two mindsets--one of blind faith, the other of openminded skepticism--could ever get along in the same brain.

There are a lot of scientists who hold deep religious beliefs, in fact. While they believe in a higher power (without need of any proof), they also believe that the Almighty has created a universe that operates under certain rules--there's an "order" to things, and as scientists they mean to study the universe in the hope of decoding some of those rules. In a way, they see themselves as trying to interpret the original "scriptures" of God--by understanding the mechanisms the Creator set in motion at the dawn of time. Science, to such researchers, is a means of understanding God, of becoming closer to Him in ways that reading and re-reading the Bible can't satisfy.

Another argument in that vein is that if God created us and gave us minds capable of high-level reasoning, surely it's because He intended for us to use them. We would be very boring pets indeed if we never used these mental gifts to advance ourselves as a species. What kind of deity would create humankind and then say, "I gave you the deluxe option package, but whatever you do, don't use any of the extra features"? That's where the whole Genesis story of the Garden of Eden and the Tree of Knowledge comes into play. We could have been eternally content living naked and unthinking in the Garden of Eden, if only Adam and Eve hadn't eaten the apples from the Tree of Knowledge, the story goes. But if God hadn't wanted us to have that knowledge, why did He put the Tree of Knowledge there in the first place? And if He was so disappointed that Adam and Eve disobeyed Him, why didn't He just smite them both and start with a new pair of humans, repeating the process until He got a suitably ignorant and uninquisitive set? The answer, it seems, is that He must have wanted us to have that knowledge--to question the world around us, and to ask the difficult questions.

The fear among many religious people, though, is that science threatens to make religion irrelevant, and even supplant God. If science can solve more and more of the mysteries of God's universe, after all, won't His Creation seem less magical, less wondrous? When the universe and all it contains can be defined and described in mathematical formulae and mechanical processes, doesn't it lose some of its splendour? Oddly enough, it has the opposite effect for many scientists. Study mathematics to the graduate level and you finally understand it well enough to have some real epiphanies about the workings of the universe--and it's a marvellous sense of awe. I've heard other colleagues comment that it was during their post-graduate studies in quantum physics, working on sub-atomic particle physics, that they "found God." Many biologists who study the process of evolution have also remarked at how "brilliant" the mechanism seems to be, how ingeniously adaptable it is, and they see that as evidence of God's cleverness.

Where science really threatens religion, though, is in terms of the social control that organized religions have held for centuries. While people attend churches, synagogues, and mosques, they submit themselves to the moral teachings and interpretations of their religious leaders, and that gives those leaders considerable power and wealth. The congregations become voting blocs at election time, and can be rallied for political purposes to march in the streets, and even commit acts of violence, all of which gives the religious leaders more social clout. If people start embracing the principles of scientific thought--the notion of viewing all things with a healthy dose of skepticism and objectivity--they might begin to see through the manipulations of their religious leaders and refuse to go along blindly anymore. If science offers practical answers to questions that organized religion can't (without resorting to the usual "God did it" cop-out), many people will no longer feel the need to attend religious services, finding it cheaper and more satisfying to subscribe to Scientific American instead.

That's really at the root of the conflict between science and religion, I think--organized religion does not want to give up its power, its wealth, and its place in a world where "spirituality" is gaining momentum. Many people these days seem to want to form their own individual relationships with their God/Goddess/Allah/Cthulhu, etc., rather than bother with joining a formal congregation. Congregations were important in the days when most people were illiterate and needed a religious leader to read and interpret the scriptures for them, but in countries where literacy rates are high, people with religious inclinations can visit bookstores and libraries and find as many different interpretations as they could ask for. These people often end up with highly customized sets of beliefs, as they search for the right combination of moral ideas to commit to. In the end they're not Catholics, not Protestants, maybe not even Christians or Jews or Muslims or Buddhists--but they're certainly "religious" in their thinking.

The fact that they're interpreting scriptures on their own, though, is what threatens organized religion more than anything else (including science). If the masses don't need a priest/minister/rabbi/imam to interpret scripture for them--if they can get that interpretation from any number of books on the subject, from The Bible for Dummies on upward to more scholarly texts--then the collection plates at local churches and synagogues and temples don't bring in as much money, and fewer worshippers are willing to commit to tithing practices (i.e. donating a percentage of their income to the church). Organized religion is an expensive business to be in, and they're losing a lot of customers thanks to gains in literacy and access to new ideas. Ironically, though, it's not just because literate people can read science textbooks, it's that they can now read hundreds of other religious texts that offer different interpretations of the same scriptures.

The market that remains for organized religion, however, is the segment that seeks comfort and consolation from others who share the same set of beliefs. Individual spirituality doesn't help you much if you need your faith bolstered occasionally by a like-minded believer, since it's doubtful you'll find anyone else who shares your particular brand of mix-and-match spirituality--sometimes being alone with your books just isn't enough. A congregation, on the other hand, serves as a support group in a lot of ways, helping members through rough times and helping to give them a sense of "belonging" to a community. That need will never go away, and organized religion still fills it rather well, though these days they have competition from all sorts of other social groups, from bowling leagues and reading groups to online forums.

In the end, then, science is not likely to ever eradicate religious belief, any more than religion will ever completely wipe out the natural curiosity of humankind. Science and religion are not wholly incompatible, as many religious scientists will attest, even if the purists at either end of the spectrum would beg to disagree

-- Arras, Advocatus Diaboli at Large

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