Belfegor
journeyman
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 82
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Hi all,
The 'witness statement' given by Dan Brown at the trial in London is absolutely fascinating - very long, detailed explanation of how he writes his books, techniques and themes he uses, and of course (the central issue in the case) his sources.
One thing of note that his testimony does seem to refute the recent L.A. Times article, at least on the count of "no content". Brown makes clear that his next novel is about the Masons, and that it is a "work in progress" - although it must be said this was written and signed in December. If he has changed his mind and gone back to the beginning, I guess the new book is a good two years away (the amount of time Brown says it takes him to write a novel).
Also in the statement are a number of clues to possible content. I've listed them in an essay on my website, in the most recent news story titled "Solomon Key Hints - From Dan Brown Himself" (in the interests of full disclosure - the linked site also promotes my book about The Solomon Key). Would love to hear others thoughts about the witness statement - quite an amazing read (e.g. the bit about Teabing *not* being modeled on the 'crippled' Henry Lincoln).
Peace and Respect, Greg
-------------------- = News on The Solomon Key?
= The Cryptex - Dan Brown central
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Sol
member
Reged: 06/26/05
Posts: 117
Loc: Jaffa
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Greg, great stuff on keeping that update running on your site about the progress of the trial. Good to have a handy place to find all the relevant info.
Brown's witness depositon is a must read for any serious buff of this material. It offers an interesting glimpse into how this man thinks, in addition to providing his sources of information. The parts explaining particular points in the books were a nice bit of nostalgia. Very rare for a court document to be so enjoyable.
One of the most revealing things for me about the testimony, is that I think this is the first time that Brown actually publicly admitted purposely naming "Leigh Teabing" as an anagram in tribute to the work of Leigh and Baigent. It's an odd "tirbute" though, as Teabing is portrayed as basically a scheming monster and a vile antagonist who causes numerous deaths and thinks nothing of killing his own main helper. I wonder if L&B are considering a defamation suit against Brown now - because the current case as I understand is only about plagiarism.
But it is strange that Brown would model his biggest "Grail Authority" in the book on two authors whose book he says he barely consulted. Another weak point may be the "too well-thumbed" copy of the HBHG that Brown has, and his explanation for it is not very believable (that it got that way only afterwards...) Plus he admits he doesn't remember if he got his list of Priory Grand Masters from them or from the "Secret Dossiers".
It's also a disappointment to hear Brown say ""more than a year had passed since I'd researched and written the novel, and the precise names, dates, places, and facts had faded somewhat in my memory." It's an unexpected admission of stupidity from someone who comes accross as such an intelligent writer. Perhaps it means that he simply doesn't care about his material so much, because otherwise it doesn't fade from memory so soon, certainly not after you spend two very intensive years researching it. It sounds like a lame excuse to cover up something Brown is not saying.
The case may possibly stand or fall on the following statement of the man who published TDVC, Janson-Smith from Random House: “I assumed that because of that character it was likely that Mr Brown had at some point been in correspondence with the authors or, if not, that it was simply his nod of respect to them. I never thought to raise any concerns about plagiarism. HBHG purports to be non-fiction, while DVC is a thriller.” (this was quoted in one of the articles.)
The court may decide that "assuming" a correspondence with the authors is not good enough for a publisher, who should've made sure about it. It's actually his duty to "raise concerns about plagiarism", especially in such a blatant case, where he admits that he noticed whom Teabing's name is based on. On the other hand, it's also undeniably true that any good fiction author uses many non-fiction books for research, and to prove plagiarism one would have to show whole passages nearly copied.
What I find most disappointing is that Brown does not mention Laurence Gardner's "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" in his statement at all. And here I was thinking that Gardner's work was the big inspiration for the DVC, and that Teabing himself is modeled after him. I started thinking this because Gardner, like Teabing, is possibly the world's foremost authority on the Grail, and is also a Crown Historian and a "Sir" (though only of Scotland, and of the highly disputed royal line of Stuart.)
I find it actually very odd that Brown doesn't mention him as a source at all. And since I like conspiracies so much, I'm starting to think that maybe Gardner really was his big inspiration after all, but they're hiding this fact for some reason. Wider publicity for the whole Merovingian Bloodline business can greatly benefit Gardner's biggest sponsor, Prince Michael of Albany, who claims Merovingian descent.
The points you raise in your latest essay on the expected plot of SK are all valid. Brown did research the Freemasons a great deal for the DVC but did not put use them at all, as he said, he decided to "shelve the subject". So it's probably a given that they'll be playing a major role in his upcoming one. And he's likely to weave Manly Hall's "Baconian America" and the Sinclair Money Pit into it somehow too.
Regards,
Sol
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Belfegor
journeyman
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 82
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Quote:
Sol said: But it is strange that Brown would model his biggest "Grail Authority" in the book on two authors whose book he says he barely consulted. Another weak point may be the "too well-thumbed" copy of the HBHG that Brown has, and his explanation for it is not very believable
Hi Sol,
Yes, I think plenty of people agree with you - it seems strange to name a character after Baigent and Leigh, if they were an 'afterthought'. This point certainly does make me question Brown's 'recollection' of the research for the book.
On the other hand, I can see how this whole situation could have come about now. The main failing is that DB takes his research from his wife, who doesn't seem to provide meticulous sourcing (ie. saying "this fact is from such and such"). Some might argue that it's not necessary in a fiction book anyhow (and I'd be tempted to agree). However, in this case, many of the other 'sources' which Brown says were of importance, originally took their research from HBHG anyhow. DB and his wife may not be aware of this (they seem to be pleading ignorance), but for anyone in the know, the end result is that much of the book seems like a derivative from HBHG.
In any case, word from Bookseller.com (which is subscriber only) is that Monday's proceedings don't sounds promising for Baigent and Leigh: "The outlook was bleak for The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail authors today at the High Court, as the judge challenged their closing statement with a disbelieving barrage of questions over whether they could copyright their 'central thesis'." Mind you, between increased sales of HBHG, and the likelihood of securing a new book contract based on the publicity they've had, it probably hasn't been that expensive of an exercise in reality...
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And he's likely to weave Manly Hall's "Baconian America" and the Sinclair Money Pit into it somehow too.
Not to mention Knight and Lomas's book The Hiram Key. I'm chuffed that I picked that as a major source for TDVC (now confirmed in his witness statement), and as I mention in my book, there are a number of reasons to believe that he will use them again (from 'hidden histories' of the naming of America, to the actual 'Solomon Key' from Royal Arch masonry).
Peace and Respect, Greg
-------------------- = News on The Solomon Key?
= The Cryptex - Dan Brown central
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Dazzle
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Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 484
Loc: UK
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Quote:
Belfegor said: The 'witness statement' given by Dan Brown at the trial in London is absolutely fascinating - very long, detailed explanation of how he writes his books, techniques and themes he uses, and of course (the central issue in the case) his sources.
Do you have a link to this?
Also, I must disagree with your other comment on your site about the Guardian article.
A friend of mine has written a letter to the editor in response claiming that it's not because people want to read the tripe being the reason why the "elitists" dislike it so, it's because it really is such a poorly written bundle of mince that it disrespects all the other books going unsold wherein the author can actually write. And, of course, the guy's sneering comments about "go back to your Joyce compendium" is worse than people disliking a badly written book. His statement is complete ignorance.
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Belfegor
journeyman
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 82
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Quote:
Dazzle said: Do you have a link to this?
Also, I must disagree with your other comment on your site about the Guardian article.
Hi Dazzle,
The witness statement is linked to from my site. In any case here it is.
I certainly don't defend TDVC as great literature. I do take issue on two points though. Firstly, that DB can't write. The reason most people finish the book, with enthusiasm (as opposed to the number of books people say they finished, but actually stopped halfway through), is because Brown knows the techniques of making a page-turner, and employs them well. No, that doesn't make it Joyce, in any sense. But as the article says, no-one is claiming that Brown is a giant of literature...he's writing pop fiction. And he obviously does it quite well.
Secondly, the other point is that if Brown had sold 100,000 copies and just had been a mildly successful 'suspense/mystery' writer, I doubt there would be much criticism of him at all. The reaction against appears to be largely based in dismay that so many people bought the book, when it is not great literature, or there are other authors out there more deserving (which seems to be confirmed in your case by your comment "it really is such a poorly written bundle of mince that it disrespects all the other books going unsold wherein the author can actually write").
I personally haven't heard anyone say to me it's the greatest book ever written...they just all have said they enjoyed reading it. I could recommend Umberto Eco or any other number of 'esoteric' themed writers to my friends, but I doubt many of them would get through the book. Which is what 'pop' is all about - I can't bear the music in the charts, and I'm flat out finding my favourite jazz, metal, and classical musicians in a music shop - but I understand why that is, and don't need to rail publicly about how Crazy Frog is not the new Mozart. I happen to agree with the article wholeheartedly, I think this particular DB criticism - that other writers are more deserving - comes down to either boorishness or sour grapes (though there is certainly room for considered criticism of many points about DB's books).
As I have said, I know a number of booklovers who praised the book initially - but then became critics when it became a mega-seller. It's difficult to take those people seriously.
Peace and Respect, Greg
-------------------- = News on The Solomon Key?
= The Cryptex - Dan Brown central
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AAnnAArchy
Gifted Procrastinator
Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
Loc: Las Vegas
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Quote:
Dazzle said: Do you have a link to this?
I posted the article here.
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Sol
member
Reged: 06/26/05
Posts: 117
Loc: Jaffa
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Quote:
Greg said:
> The Guardian article
I just got around to reading that one, and although they're the kind of people who admit to having room for fois gras on their dinner table, I basically agree with the take. I liked the DVC myself, regardless of having it stuffed into me since day one what literature should "really" be like.
The DVC was always part of the "researched thriller" category, like things of Frederic Forsythe or Robert Ludlum, whose lack of literary merit nobody bothers to point out. It wasn't supposed to be compared to works of people like Bernard Shaw or even Graham Greene. As you say, had it not turned into such a seller, it wouldn't need to be criticised so widely.
But I found the following quote from the article interesting:
"...initially at least, it was a book that achieved its success not by virtue of a sinister marketing campaign ... but through personal recommendations and word-of-mouth."
I wonder about that. I myself actually did get my first DVC from a friend, but it goes against what Brown stated in his court deposition:
"215. It is impossible to ignore the fact that The Da Vinci Code launch was one of the best orchestrated in history. It is still talked about in the industry. Articles have been written specifically on The Da Vinci Code launch."
I bet that Guardian reporter didn't bother reading the whole 68-page testimony. Or do they dispute Brown's version of the "best orchestrated launch"?
Regards,
Sol
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ash
journeyman
Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: Bombay India
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Sol,Greg
I agree with you DB himself has never postured himself as great literary person,in fact in his testimony he clearly states he had grown up reading Faulkner etc. Only after reading Doomsday Comspiracy by Sedney Sheldon he felt he should write. Now I am sure Dazzle will not compare Sydney Sheldon or for that matter Michel Crichton or Tom Clancy or Robin Cook with Joyce. Why single out Dan ,just because he sold more copies than any of the above.In fact Dan has shown maturity through this whole criticism ,anybody else in his place would have reacted bitterly. Dazzle you seem to be a well read person from your own statements and you say you like Ishiguro ( Sorry for spelling)....in that case you should not discuss anything about Dan ,because we are his fans and no one on these forums claims he is in league with Great Literary masters
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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well, there are some differences between DB and the others on your list. For one thing, Tom Clancy is pretty much always right about his facts.
-------------------- "Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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MsVetra
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Reged: 09/29/05
Posts: 300
Loc: UK
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Sephia said: well, there are some differences between DB and the others on your list. For one thing, Tom Clancy is pretty much always right about his facts.
Lol Sephia! I'm guessing you've been hanging around with Dazzle, lately ;-)
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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lol. It seems that some of his opinions are rubbing off.
I'll admit that DB isn't all too good on facts, but I don't think that's too important. I still enjoy the books. And the subsequent research.
-------------------- "Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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ash
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Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: Bombay India
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Sephia
No Dazzle has not rubbed me wrongly he he.Earlier some of his comments to others I found a bit high handed ,then attack came my way .Now I am simply amused how much explanation I myself provided him trying to defend my comments Notice thats what happens to many....on so many threads so many members have tried to defend . As far as Tom Clancy goes ,the guy writes 20th century politics so people are around to endorse his facts. Poor Dan does not have biblical people to endorse his facts. Also Tom Clancy got a few major facts wrong in LOC a novel about my country and Pakistan .Now I cannot comment on novels set in U.S. or any place else. Ash
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Sephia
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Loc: MA, USA
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LOC? Which one is that? I've only read a few of his books.
Though I did talk to a British guy who owns the bookstore near my house, and he said Clancy has a very clear understanding of the Irish conflict (in Patriot Games).
-------------------- "Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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8549176320abc
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Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 219
Loc: UK
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Clancy has a lovely world veiw. Good and evil exist. Evil gets the upper hand before good comes back and triumphs with vastly superior wepons.
-------------------- Governments offer us safety for our freedom. It is by seeing this safety as false that we are freed.
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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or vastly superior intelligence gathering ops and superior armies.
-------------------- "Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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8549176320abc
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Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 219
Loc: UK
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Yes. Quite.
-------------------- Governments offer us safety for our freedom. It is by seeing this safety as false that we are freed.
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Dazzle
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Reged: 04/02/04
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Quote:
ash said:
As far as Tom Clancy goes ,the guy writes 20th century politics so people are around to endorse his facts. Poor Dan does not have biblical people to endorse his facts.
As far as I'm aware Digital Fortress and Deception Point were not religious in content and were in fact very much set in the 20th Century - yet he still couldn't get his facts straight.
And anyway, The Da Vinci Code doesn't require Biblical testimonies given that it concerns itself mostly with the Renaissance period right up to the 21st Century of which there is plenty of written material just waiting for Dan - actually, I mean Blythe - to uncover. That they don't just implies they are lazy amateurs.
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Belfegor
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Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 82
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Dazzle said: That they don't just implies they are lazy amateurs.
I guess that's 40+ million copies of testimony to the benefits of being a lazy amateur. 
Peace and Respect, Greg
-------------------- = News on The Solomon Key?
= The Cryptex - Dan Brown central
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Remarkable
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Greg, Dazzle just has high standards, that's all. Dan certainly doesn't have the discipline to write a novel about cotton, which quite rightly makes him lazy in Dazzle's book (pun intended!).
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Arras
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Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
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Belfegor said: I guess that's 40+ million copies of testimony to the benefits of being a lazy amateur. 
More likely it's a testament to how uncritical the general readership is. Tell them a story they're eager to hear, and they're willing to overlook factual errors. When the audience already wants to believe the story's thesis, the author doesn't have to work as diligently to make his case. More scrupulous critics can pore over the work and point out all of the flaws, but that's not enough to change the minds of the believers, who read books like this largely for the affirmation of their beliefs (e.g. that the Church has been hiding something, is up to something, has been lying to us, is out of step with the modern world, oppresses women, etc.).
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Belfegor
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Reged: 01/12/05
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Arras said: More likely it's a testament to how uncritical the general readership is.
You mean to say that the general public, with their taste in such high-brow entertainment as American Idol and Jerry Springer, are an uncritical audience? I'm shocked and dismayed at your lack of faith in humanity. 
Then, after all, it is a mass-market fiction novel. I generally don't do a lot of fact-checking of the fiction I read...
Peace and Respect, Greg
-------------------- = News on The Solomon Key?
= The Cryptex - Dan Brown central
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Arras
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Belfegor said: Then, after all, it is a mass-market fiction novel. I generally don't do a lot of fact-checking of the fiction I read...
Right, but how much of the mass-market fiction that you read starts with a page that claims that key elements described and used in the story to follow are "real" or "true"? That's the problem most critics have with Brown's works--the "claims of fact" that are either so weak as to be useless, or outright provably false. If he'd omitted that page of fact claims, no critic would have any right to get on his case about running fast and loose with his research.
It's the fact that he sets the reader up with expectations that the core thesis is well-researched fact that gets him into hot water. An uncritical reader comes away from the book believing that the thesis is true, and that Dan Brown has uncovered a real-world plot of enormous significance, not just a fictional plot. He presents his evidence as very much "real", which blurs the line between fiction and non-fiction. He's basically taken the thesis of Holy Blood, Holy Grail and presented it in The DaVinci Code, asking effectively, "what if Baigent et al. are right about this?" It's speculative fiction, and that's great, but the "claims of fact" at the beginning mislead the reader into taking the speculation a lot more seriously than it deserves.
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Sephia
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Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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Quote:
Belfegor said: [ You mean to say that the general public, with their taste in such high-brow entertainment as American Idol and Jerry Springer, are an uncritical audience? I'm shocked and dismayed at your lack of faith in humanity. 
Then, after all, it is a mass-market fiction novel. I generally don't do a lot of fact-checking of the fiction I read...
Peace and Respect, Greg
Oh, yes, the very sophisticated Jerry Springer, where throwing a chair is the highlight of the show. And don't even get me started on Idol, which most people watch for the bad ones, not the good ones--"she bang..."
Good point also about the fact checking... When I read a fictional novel, I generally read it as if it is taking place in a parallel universe where the general historical facts (Crusades, WWII, etc) are the same, but the author can add/change whatever he/she wants.
however, that "Fact:" page in DB's novel drove me (and others) to their history books. Still, it's a novel. It was never intended to rewrite history. The fact page is just there to make it more interesting.
-------------------- "Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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kyrus
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Reged: 03/16/06
Posts: 23
Loc: France
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Quote:
Sephia said: well, there are some differences between DB and the others on your list. For one thing, Tom Clancy is pretty much always right about his facts.
harharharharhar
Laughing My Arse Off in duplicate LMAO'senges
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Arras
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Reged: 05/24/04
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Loc: B.C., Canada
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Quote:
Sephia said: For one thing, Tom Clancy is pretty much always right about his facts.
True, but Clancy also has a tendency to make readers suffer in order to justify the time he spends on his painstaking research. He ends up with reams of minutiae, hoping to impress us with his "insider knowledge," and so we end up with tedious crap like this, from The Hunt for Red October:
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Tom Clancy wrote: The outward-moving water carried the clapper into the pipe, which had a fifteen-centimeter inside diameter. The pipe was made of stainless steel, two-meter sections welded together for easy replacement in the cramped quarters. The clapper was borne along rapidly towards the head exchanger. Here the pipe took a forty-five-degree downward turn ...
If that paragraph were an exception it might be easier to forgive Clancy, but frankly that's typical of most of the book. This is one reason that Clancy's stories often come off better on the screen than on the page. As one reviewer put it, "we just want to read about a submarine, not build one."
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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Actually, I enjoyed Hunt for Red October (the book). I thought that the minutiae are useful to paint the picture, and frankly, interesting. That's the difference between Tolkein and See Spot Run. Minutiae.
-------------------- "Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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ash
journeyman
Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: Bombay India
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In fact I liked book better than movie. And Clancy is an easy read not painful.Ditto Crichton.Ditto Dan.All are good
Wow and you guys are still at it superb Ash
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