EVDebs
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Reged: 07/10/05
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After encouragement by Sol and Arras to start another thread out of information posted on the Plot of Solomon Key thread, I have started this one as a core plotline and possible basis of a new Dan Brown novel.
"Eschatology (from the Greek eschatos meaning "last" + -logy) is a part of theology concerned with the final events in the history of the world or the ultimate fate of human kind, commonly phrased as the end of the world. In many religions, the end of the world is a future event prophesied in sacred texts or folklore. More broadly, eschatology may encompass related concepts such as the messiah or messianic era, the afterlife, and the soul."
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology
All three major religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, have eschatologies. Lately much interest has centered upon the evangelical Christian and fundumentalist Judeo efforts to either wait for or actively seek to create a Third Temple in Jerusalem.
Such a Third Temple would in most views require that the Dome of The Rock, the third holiest site of Islam, be removed somehow. This line of thinking is what spurs much of the underlying conflict in the Middle East and accompanying mistrust all around.
The thesis of Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code left us with the Priory de Sion theory of the Holy Grail. This theory has been discredited as a hoax, see
Priory of Sion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion
So, then, what IS the Holy Grail ? As I've posted before, the Graham Hancock theory of the Grail as allegory for The Ark of The Covenant, the containment vessel for the tablets of the Ten Commandments given by God to Moses is that the Ark is in Ethiopia; orthodox Jews believe it rests in a secret chamber beneath the Dome of the Rock see
"The Ark's presence in this secret hiding place is widely believed by most of the Orthodox Jewish groups actively involved today in preparations for rebuilding the Third Jewish Temple."
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a018.html
The question begging to be answered is whether a Third Temple in Jerusalem is NECESSARY.
From Christian eschatology we find that of the three views most commonly held today, futurism is the one linked most closely to requiring a Third Temple see
The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm
Originating from the Counter-reformation's need to avert Protestant allegations that the Papacy was the antichrist.
As time went by even Protestant evangelical denominations adopted the Futurist eschatology, most popularly evidenced by the Left Behind series of novels.
Where Dan Brown's new novel starts off from is with the Knights Templar, of Crusade fame in the late 11th through early 14th centuries, who held the Temple Mount site in Jerusalem for about one hundred years. The speculation is the KT have secret knowledge of where the Ark of The Covenant is located.
But even if the Ark IS located, what is the need for a new Third Temple ? To restore a sacrificial system for Judaism since the last Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE ?
Second Temple
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple
Regarding Third Temple,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korban#Will_sacrifices_be_reinstituted_in_the_future.3F
"Will sacrifices be reinstituted in the future?
Since the destruction of the Temple, Judaism has instituted a system of study, public Torah readings, and prayers that connect the Jewish people to the Temple and the Temple service.
The prevailing belief among rabbinic Jews is that in the messianic era, the Jewish Messiah would come and a Third Temple would be re-built. It is believed that the korbanot would be reinstituted, but to what extent and for how long is unknown. Some biblical and classical rabbinic sources hold that most or all sacrifices will not need to be offered"
The interplay between Jewish, Christian, and Islamic eschatology all appear to center around the Temple Mount site. Since a Third Temple would need the Ark of the Covenant as its centerpiece, is this a matter of Prophesy or necessity ? What are the implications ?
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Sephia
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Reged: 11/28/03
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Interesting...
I don't really know much about Eschatology, and I am not really going to do much research now for 2 very basic reasons.
1) I'd like to wait for Solomon Key so I have a few guidelines of what to research, since the study of the 10 commandments, the Temple Mount, the Third Temple, and and eschatology would take a VERY long time if I was to be thorough.
2) I am too busy with college work...
But, it seems to me from what I've been reading here that this third temple would not be another big glamorous marble/stone tourist spot. As something so important to the End of Days, I would be more likely to believe that it, if built, would be made by a small group of absolutely devoted (read: fanatical) people who would keep it an absolute secret for as long as possible, until the coming of the Messiah, when, they think, they would get their reward.
The problem with any public venture of the kind, besides tourism, is the fact that three majorly huge religions are involved, and there are some similarly majorly huge diffirences in these religious concepts of the End of Days. Though Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have some common roots (aka: the old testament, for the most part), there is enough difference that the three cannot even agree on the basic nature or location of the Ark. Also, each of these religions has subgroups, all of which have slightly differing beliefs. As such, the construction of such a temple would be impossible unless by the small group described above.
Also, there is some question about when is the End of Times. There are very few who believe that the world will come to an end in a week or month or year, or even decade.
So, all in all, this venture is rather impossible, unless, again, we are talking about that small fanatical group. Which, unless it is some covert secret historical and very rich fellowship, would have a problem affording these dreams. Such organizations are the Masons (though I doubt they would be interested... and besides, they are so big as to run into the problems described, unless it was a tiny little higher echelon Masonic subgroup, or some similarly powerful group which is a complete secret. Doubtful that such a group would have the clout and resources, but that's what fiction is for!
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"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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Sol
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Loc: Jaffa
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You sure got a wealth of information there, EV, good show on collating it all. You still have to insert your Mahdi Connection in there too though, weave the Islamic angle into the story.
Before proceeding with my critique, hehehe, let me just say that I've already learned a wealth of new material by following the links you provided, and some other links from there. For example, I had no idea that the character of Sir Teabing in Da Vinci Code is claimed to be a composite of the three writers of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" - Baigent, Leigh, and Lincoln. Teabing's first name is "Leigh", his last name is an anagram of "Baigent", and his physical description resembles that of Henry Lincoln. And despite the fact that "Holy Blood" is specifically mentioned as a source by Dan Brown, the trio of writers is currently sueing Random House for plagiarism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Blood%2C_Holy_Grail)
(But I STILL say that Teabing is modeled not after any of these guys or even their composite, but after Sir Laurence Gardner, who is a Knight of England, a Royal Historian of the British Crown, and the world's foremost authority on the Grail today. And he DID NOT plagiarise from the "Holy Blood" book. One of his books is very similarly titled "Bloodline of the Holy Grail", but although published about fifteen years after "Holy Blood" - the information he provided there was known to "his people", The Order of St. Columba, for many generations, he didn't have to plagiarize Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln for it. The good thing about Gardner, hehehe, is that he's considered a fringe lunatic by even more people than think that about the other triumvirate. Not somebody who's theories are likely to be accepted by the Mainstream, thus the perfect guy to get "fictional" information from.)
Meanwhile back to your Thesis, you raise several vital issues here, some of which can take us really far afield. Hopefully the moderators will let us know if we get too off-topic here, or say something really stupid.
Eschathology in the Middle East is certainly a very hot subject, but are you saying that you think Brown's upcoming "Solomon Key" will go as far as that, take the Grail all the way to Israel and to the Temple Mountain Faithful? But that would mean that the Masonic Monuments of Virginia would have to point Palestine somehow, and not to a hiding place in Virginia or neaby. We first have to establish that it was moved to Virginia at all, and only then see if we can follow it elsewhere.
Well, I feel that I actually do have some "evidence" that the Grail is in fact in Palestine (and I plan to present it here before long.) But it stands to reason that the architecture of DC wouldn't point in that direction, because those buildings were already standing while the Grail was still in Virginia. On the other hand, the Kryptos sculpture was made in 1990 and Could potentially somehow take us back to the Holy Land, the Grail's supposed original birthplace. But this may already be a bit to much for just one book, and my guess is that Dan will leave this for another future sequel, after showing at the end of the upcoming one that it's really no longer in Virginia.
The Grail story surely should be linked to the "Latter Days", because I belive that it's an artifact which in one form or another has followed Humankind since its inception. And the Latter Days is Now. (I myself don't think that the Grail is either the Arc of the Covenant, or the Proof of Jesus' continuing bloodline, but that's another story, which we'll have to leave for later.)
I do not agree with Sephia's assessement that "very few" believe the world will end "even in a decade". There are very large numbers of Fundamentalists of the three monotheistic religions, who have been raised to think that we are the Last Generation. Many of the various "New Age" philosophies also base their theories on this, which is another large group of people. And there's also the Environmentalists and other Leftists, willing to convince anyone that this is the proverbial End of All. Plus many others, like your various Weekend Militias in the US, the "Survivalists" and their kind. All these groups together are still a minority in world population, sure, but it's no longer a very minute and negligible minority. I think one can say today with reasonable certainty that simply Vast numbers of people around the world DO belive that this is the Latter Days, TEOTWAWKI and so on. Yes, Within a decade, not so far now.
You are absolutely right that it's Sheer Insanity to think that one can build an actual Third Temple on the site of the Dome of the Rock or anywhere on Temple Mount. Actively trying to build such a Temple would certainly be a very easy way to start World War III, at the minimum. People who want to bring about the Rapture through such means are turning Eschatology into plain Scatology, hehehe.
The good news in this regard is that nothing like this is very likely to materialize, despite the fun of fantasizing about what would happen if it did, hehehe. Because we are talking about a very small number of people who are actually into building this Physical Temple.
First, let us remember that the Orthodox Jews represent a small minority within the Jewish population of Israel today, about 20% out of only five million people. The vast majority of Israel's Jews would call themselves "secular" today, meaning, they do not observe ANY religious rituals, except for family reasons (like when getting together for the Holidays.) They no longer worship Jehovah, like they did a mere hundred years ago. These Jews feel themselves connected to Historical Judaism and Historical Israel through bloodlines and ethnic grouping, and not through Religion. I myself am one such.
Out of the approximately one million religious Jews in Israel, a truly small fringe minority (say not more than one percent, or about ten thousand people) are truly thinking about a Physical Third Temple. The rest of the religious understand, as does Israel's secular population, that such an idea is more than simply absurd or preposterous - it's plain Suicide. If bombs truly start to fly - this country would be finished, as the area is very small and there's nowhere to run. Everyone would die, and this is not the goal, even of the Extremists. Which is why they are in such a small minortiy.
Therefore, although some fringe terror groups of religious Jews do occasionally mention the Third Temple, they are basically only mocked (and arrested) by just about everyone else. These fringe groups do get moral (and even financial) support from some American Christian Fundamentalists, because their actions seem to fulfill the Latter Day Prophecies of the New Testament. But they have very little actual power, other than being able to stage random acts of terror.
(And the Wikipedia article on the Temple Mount agrees with my "small minority" estimate - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem :
"A ... very small [number of] Jewish groups support constructing a Third Temple today, but most Jews oppose this, for a variety of reasons. Most religious Jews feel that the Temple should only be rebuilt in the messianic era, and that it would be presumptuous of people to force God's hand, as it were. Furthermore, there are many ritual impurity constrictions that are difficult to resolve, making the building's construction a practical impossibility.
Additionally, many Jews are against rebuilding the Temple due to the enormously hostile reaction from Muslims that would likely result— even were the building to be complementary to those holy to Islam currently present on the Temple Mount site, there would be high suspicion that such a building project would ultimately end with the destruction of these and the rebuilding of the Temple on its original spot.")
On the other hand, many of these Jewish religious groups are undeniably Racist, meaning, they consider Arabs to be an inferior race. They also consider the entire occupied territory of Judea and Samaria as their religious birthright, regardless of whether any Arab already happens to live there or not. And it should also be noted, for fairness sake, that the Palestinian side is no less racist towards the Jews, such are the sad historical roots of this endless conflict.
It's also historically known, that the Arab population of Palestine can relatively easily be incited to riot and war, even by lies about supposed atrocities. An Imam can stir up his audience into Believing that the Jews are about to attack the Mosque of Omar, even if it's not true, and then the fecal matter will start to swoon. This whole situation is a gunpowder keg ready to blow, no doubt about it, unless a serious political solution is reached, which doesn't seem too likely right now with everything else going on (such as the American presence in Iraq, and the Arab world believing that they've been sent there by the Jews - and this really is what many believe.)
As for reinstituting the Sacrificial System - most religious Jews realize that this would be a grave Spritual Inconsistensy in today's changed world. Once again, only a very small fringe minority (number-wise) is calling for such a thing. That page in Wikipedia you pointed to describes it quite well, actually. In the distant past, animal sacrifices were necessary in order to substitute animals for human sacrifices (like in the Isaac Substitution,) and also because mankind wasn't ready yet back then to make the leap into worshipping only with one's Heart.
But today the accepted view is the one expressed by Yohannan ben Zakai, "There is another equally meritorious way of gaining ritual atonement, even though the Temple is destroyed. We can still gain ritual atonement through deeds of loving-kindness. For it is written (in Hosea 6:6) 'Lovingkindness I desire, not sacrifice.' "
And also that "Doing righteous deeds of charity is greater than offering all of the sacrifices", which is based on the words of Isaiah 1:11-17 - "What are your multiple sacrifices to me, says the Lord, I have had enough of burnt offerings ... bring your worthless offerings no longer ... [and instead] cease to do Evil."
Anyhow, taking all that into account - you still think somebody will try build the actual Temple? I strongly doubt it. The Spark that Starts the Big One will come from something else. Okay, start looking for another place to place the Arc for the Last Days...
Well, enough from me for one time (:-) , but I'll look forward to continuing this.
Cheers,
Sol
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EVDebs
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Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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Sol and Sephia
The Christian Messiah's Second Coming, according to Futurist/LeftBehind eschatology with the pre-Tribulation Rapture, requires an antichrist to sit in a re-instituted Third Temple (some like Jerry Falwell go so far as to say this antichrist will be a Jew, for which he was roundly rebuked in the media not too long ago).
Islam's Mahdi, or Guided One see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi
has similar attributes, especially under the portion "Emergence of the Mahdi" in the link above.
Though even a small part of Israel's population, orthodox Jews still await the Anointed One but, as point #3 shows below
"1. All of the people of Israel will come back to Torah
2. The people of Israel will be gathered back to the land of Israel
3. The Holy Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt
4. Israel will live free among the nations, and will have no need to defend itself
5. War and famine will end, and an era of peace and prosperity will come upon the Earth"
from Jewish Eschatology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology
Now those three versions of the End Times all contain scenarios that can meld into an antichrist somehow ending up in a Third Temple for whatever purpose (each religion varies in the final interpretation).
Where this gets interesting for me is with the Knights Templar and the Knights of Malta (Hospitallers) and potential intelligence agency abuse of the eschatology for their own means and ends.
The SMOM, as it is known today --
"The Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta (commonly known as the “Order of Malta”) is a lay, religious order of the Catholic Church. It is a Hospitaller order, founded in Jerusalem during the eleventh century"
http://www.smom.org/
--probably formed the bulk of the early membership of the USA's CIA leadership
"The brotherhood's Catholic and aristocratic roots made the modern knights fervently anti-communist. The order has been largely responsible for the construction of the CIA, and many of its global covert operations. The founding fathers of the CIA William "Wild Bill" Donovan and Allen Dulles were knights, as were many other CIA hierarchy including Ronald Reagan's director William Casey and JFK's director John McCone. According to "Watergate" journalist Carl Bernstein, Casey gave Pope John Paul II unprecedented access to CIA intelligence including spy satellites and agents." from
http://www.geocities.com/newworldorder_themovie/knightsofmalta.html
Please note, I do not agree with everything this site says, especially the 'alliance' it speculates of with Freemasonry and the Knights of Malta.
In any event the schizm between the Knights Templar and Knights of Malta would appear to have been ended outside of organizational structures, since the Futurist eschatology has been adopted by most mainline evangelical denominations in the United States.
For what it's worth, after the Knights of Malta/CIA leadership determined what world view IT would end up planning for, the Futurist viewpoint would seem to logically be embedded in that plan. Which brings us to 'where we are today'.
Sol, Sephia, and any other reader, please rent the video of the movie Three Days of The Condor (1975) starring Robert Redford and Faye Dunaway. The plot centers around a CIA open-source 'reader', the Redford character, who uncovers secret CIA plans for a takeover of Saudi oilfields.
In 1973, secret plans for that exact scenario were drawn up
U.S. Mulled Seizing Oil Fields In '73
British Memo Cites Notion of Sending Airborne to Mideast
by Glenn Frankel
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, January 1, 2004; Page A01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A46321-2003Dec31¬Found=true
Why it took until Jan 1, 2004, for this information to be publicly acknowledged in the press when the 'art mimics life' version, as the movie attests, was open speculation is anyone's guess. Strange though.
Therefore, could the eschatology be a pawn for the intelligence agency (and its possible uber-controlling organization SMOM) for their own means to an end ?
Remembering that pretext for military action is a necessity in the modern world, foreign policy would need to consider how this all factors into the mix.
The key thing is what Sephia and Sol both point to, that being a small group with a Third Temple belief "need" could end up triggering World War III because their Messiah, Anointed One, Guided One needs such preconditions prior to arrival.
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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You mention a unified Israel as one of the requirements. Frakly, unless we do get WWIII, that's not going to happen any time soon!
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"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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EVDebs
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Sephia
All the more reason why these small but influential groups working behind the scenes, with the Mainstreammedia asleep-at-the-wheel, will end up providing 'justifications' for doing what they're doing.
You hit the nail on the head in your earlier post.
I read also in Thomas Friedman's From Beirut to Jerusalem that Jews in Israel actually have American Jews teaching them how to be Jewish (see Chapter 12 'Whose Country Is This, Anyway ?' especially and the entire second half of the book...very well done btw). Friedman delves into the whole secular/messiahanic Jewish conundrum directly related to what I've started here.
This is the "meat" for any new Dan Brown novel. I'm just kicking around the Knights Templar historical background stuff because it is soooooo historically scene setting for what's going on today.
Is this not fun or what ?
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EVDebs
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The Acacia Sprig and Freemasonry...and a hint at the Ark ?
My father's masonic funeral service and the role of the acacia sprig in it constantly remind me of the connections of the source Knights Templar interest in the Ark of the Covenant and the acacia wood the Ark was made of (the 'shittim' wood the bible mentions).
"...the recollection of a virtuous and well-spent life will yield the only comfort and consolation..." and
" Master displays Acacia
This Evergreen, which once marked the temporary resting place of one illustrious in Masonic history, is an emblem of our enduring faith in the Immortality of the Soul. By it we are reminded that we have an imperishable part within us, which shall survive all earthly existence, and which will never, never die. Through the loving goodness of our Supreme Grand Master, we may confidently hope that, like this Evergreen, our souls will hereafter flourish in eternal spring.
We shall ever cherish in our hearts the memory of our departed Brother and, commending his spirit to Almighty God, we trustingly leave him in the hands of that Beneficent Being who has done all things well; who is glorious in His Holiness, wondrous in His Power, and boundless in His Goodness; and it should always be our endeavor so to live that we too may be found worthy to inherit the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world."
from http://www.calodges.org/no406/FUNERAL1.HTM
and
THE SYMBOLISM OF FREEMASONRY
ILLUSTRATING AND EXPLAINING
Its Science and Philosophy, its Legends, Myths, and Symbols.
by ALBERT G: MACKEY, M. D.,
Editon 1882 CHAPTER XXVIII.
http://internetloge.de/massym/massym28.htm
"The acacia, on the contrary, was esteemed a sacred tree. It is the acacia vera of Tournefort, and the mimosa nilotica of Linnaeus. It grew abundantly in the vicinity of Jerusalem, *) where it is still to be found, and is familiar to us all, in its modern uses at least, as the tree from which the guma arabic of commerce is obtained.
The acacia, which, in Scripture, is always called shittah. +) and in the plural shittim, was esteemed a sacred wood among the Hebrews. Of it Moses was ordered to make the tabernacle, the ark of the covenant, the table for the showbread, and the rest of the sacred furniture. Isaiah, in recounting the promises of God's mercy to the Israelites on their return from the captivity, tells them, that, among other things, he will plant in the wilderness, for their relief and refreshment, the cedar, the acacia (or, as it is rendered in our common version, the shittah), the fir, and other trees."
The connections are unmistakable and the symbolism self-evident. The Templars, the freemasons, and the acacia wood.
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EVDebs
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Sol
Being in Israel, you may remember this dustup brought to us by the idiotic Rev. Jerry Falwell, one of the 'futurist' preachers.
I, Antichrist?
I'm Jewish. I'm male. I'm alive. By Jerry Falwell's standards, that puts me on the short-list of candidates
http://www.slate.com/id/45483/
"The surest suspicion I had about my pivotal role in Christian eschatology grew from the fact that I am Jewish, male, and alive. These are the qualifications for the job of Antichrist as specified by Lynchburg's most famous preacher, Jerry Falwell, in a speech he made earlier this year.
I was actually going to see the Rev. Falwell on a different matter, the future of Jerusalem, but I thought I might just slip this question--the one about me maybe being the Antichrist--into the stream of the interview. Falwell, I guessed, wouldn't be happy to discuss his views on the identity of the Antichrist--he had apologized for the remark but took quite a load of grief for it anyway.
As it turned out, though, Falwell was eager to talk about the Antichrist. And, as it also turned out, he didn't really feel bad for saying what he said. In fact, he was more convinced than ever that the Antichrist is a Jew who walks among us."
That, my friends, is the mindset of the futurist eschatology, which sooo emphasizes heavenly mindedness that they're no earthly good (as an old professor once said to my class).
Forgetting that the original historicist view, that the papacy was the antichrist, leads the current crop of evangelical 'protestant' Christians into this kind of slander of Jews that Falwell puts out. It makes you wonder what these so-called 'protestant' denominations were protesting in the first place, and this is by no means to be taken as a slap at Catholic believers in Christ. Without a doubt they too are ashamed of some of the acts of Popes in the past and are no 'fans' of Inquisitions.
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Sephia
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Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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A-ha! My 15-month old brother could be the anti-christ! I am not sure whether to laugh or be scared. Well, considering that it's Jerry Falwell, I think I'll go for the former...
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"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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Sol
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Reged: 06/26/05
Posts: 117
Loc: Jaffa
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Hi EV,
I've been busy with some family matters, but I'm back, and hoping we continue the conversation.
I'm still trying to understand the entire construct you are building here. How does the acacia tree tie into it? The Masonic veneration of the Acacia would surely stem from the Arc having been made from this wood. But this does not necessarily prove that the Freemasons are as ancient an order as some conspiracy buffs would have us believe.
By the way, one of the reasons the acacia was considered sacred in the old days, is because it's the largest shade-giving tree which naturally grew more in abundance than others in the very arid regions of the Negev and Judea deserts, and the mountains surrounding Jerusalem. When you're traveling under the sun in the scorching heat of the desert, a tree offering such shaded relief would certainly be considered "holy", a veritable Gift of God for your suffering. Which is why the much rarer local Oak is considered even a great deal "more" holy, as it offered a lot more shade.
As a funny aside here, researchers from English-speaking countries who come to Israel to study the acacia usually quickly find the subject embarassing, because as one of the quotes you bring says - in Hebrew it is called a "shittah" or "shita". Not something Americans like to say out loud in polite company, hehehe. In this respect, it may be well to remember that the very first word that starts off the Bible in Hebrew, the word translated into English as "Genesis" or "In the beginning" - is "Bereshit". Go figure.
I also want to ask for some clarification of the Mahdi issue. In your message about it here from Nov. 2 - are you saying that the Mahdi could be the Christian Antichrist? Careful they don't offer your head on Al Jazeera... But I think the Bahai faith has a lot to say on the Mahdi, it should be looked into.
Regarding what you say right after that in that message about the Orthodox Jews looking to rebuild the Third Temple. The old Jewish belief that the "Temple will be rebuilt" refers to the days after the coming of the Messiah, and NOT as something which will precede his coming. In this respect they greatly differ from Fundamentalist Christian escathology, publicized lately by such vocal people as Hal Lindsey we've mentioned elsewhere. Lindsey believes that the Jews have to build the actual physical Temple, or at least start building it, and only afterwards what he sees as the foretold confrontation between the Messiah and the Antichrist will take place.
On a historical note, Christian Escathology has already played a major part in the resettlement of Israel by Jews in modern times. Some Fundamentalist Christian groups from America and Europe were the Original Zionists, throughout the 19th Century. This bit of info is usually simply ignored in the various histories of Israel today of course. But the truth is, that groups of Mormons, Seven-Day Adventists, German Templers and others, came to settle Palestine many decades before the Jews started arriving, and they came with the specific purpose to prepare the land for the resettlement of the Jews, before the Advent of the Messiah. People like Joseph Smith, the founder of the RLDS, foretold the Rebuilding of Israel nearly half a century before the "first Jewish Zionist" - Theodore Herzl, started trying to actually raise funds for it.
Laslty, the "Three Days of the Condor" was a memorable show, and young Faye Dunaway was of course a big hit when I was in school in the seventies. Back then it was considered a major action flick, which seems really funny with the filming techniques they have today. But I think that the plan to take over the Saudi Oil fields was born long before that, though. It most likely goes back to WWII, when Germany threw in all of its might on the Eastern Front to capture the Soviet oil of Baku and the Caspian Sea region. That led to the famous battle of Stalingrad, which was to be decisive for both sides, and it was. And if we follow the various conspiracy material, which names surviving Wermacht and Shutzstaffel administrators as some of the founding members of the CIA and later the American Foreign Policy - we can perhaps see where plans such as this one were born.
EV, I would like to ask you to write to me, at the address "volimerc at gmail dot com" (replace with "at" sign and period when mailing.) My address is also available at my profile on these forums. I've become involved lately in researching a very curious artifact found by archeologists two months ago on the Temple Mount, and we need knoweldgeable people to help looking for its origins.
Regards,
Sol
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EVDebs
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Sol
The Acacia sprigs my Dad's funeral had and their mention with a most impressive Masonic ceremony for their departed brother are what got me going on the possibility that the acacia wood and the Ark's containment wood are all very symbolic with the Knights Templar and therefore the Freemasons who sprang from that organization.
Dan Brown's DaVinciCode thesis, being proven off course by the hoax Priory of Sion -- Plantard's little joke on the world-- leaves me wondering about how the Grail legend just emerges from Europe, slightly tweaked from Celtic legends, but nonetheless emerging intact virtually with Chretien de Troyes around the time of St Bernard of Clairveaux's death (who pretty much was responsible for founding the Knights Templar order). Parting 'gift', so to speak.
I know my comments on the Mahdi can be viewed as controversial; therefore I'd prefer not contact directly. If you could use the middleman function of cultofdanbrown's message center I'd feel safer. You understand...Rushdie and all that. No offense.
Btw, the CIA's origins with many Knights of Malta (the old Hospitallers order renamed, and enemy of Freemasonry and Knights Templar, being a fiercely loyal Catholic order) eventually did Operation Paperclip which imported former Nazi intelligence officers--ostensibly to gain intell on Soviets--including Reinhard Gehlen, the chief of intelligence. He was also a Knight of Malta. Very interesting. As an aside, many of the bad character 'witnesses' around Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas were White Russians loyal to fascism and brought to the US under similar Paperclip visas. Bit of a 'smoking gun' there as to 'why' they would provide such bad info in the Warren Report on Oswald.
Finally, I've heard that Hal Lindsey occassionally consults for the CIA. If THAT doesn't make you wonder why the Temple is central to today's events...and this whole thread.
Again, don't be offended my not wanting to contact outside of the filters. This is very touchy subject matter for some.
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Sol
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EVDebs said:
I know my comments on the Mahdi can be viewed as controversial; therefore I'd prefer not contact directly. If you could use the middleman function of cultofdanbrown's message center I'd feel safer. You understand...Rushdie and all that. No offense.
Hehehe, I wasn't going to talk to you about the Mahdi and his friends, I could do that here. I look for nothing more than an exchange of knowledge. And I also like to think of myself as one the more liberal-minded person one can encounter. As I say to my friends, I'm not a racist, I hate all religions equally, hehehe... But no, in fact I try not to hate. Just see them all in their naked shortcomings and controlling lies. I can do it just as well on an open mailing list.
I wanted to show you some amazing close-ups of a tiny "templar cross" of unknown origin, found by archeologists under the Temple Mount in Jerusalem just two months ago. This find is hot and is begging for some quick research, yet I wouldn't presume to publish it on a forum as busy as this without reaching some conclusions about it first. So I'm putting together a small think-tank on the subject, where ideas can start to fly. You struck me as knowledgeable enough to have an opinion on the abundance of symbols on this pendant, and I thought I'd ask you too.
The "CIA - Big Oil - Bush Family - ex Nazi" connection is of course a big topic on all the conspiracy lists these days. One can't help thinking that at least some of it must be true, and certainly some facts about the German IG Farben Concern and its cooperation with American companies and banks can't be denied. Now THERE's a controversial topic for you, hehehe, enough so that I think we better leave the bulk of it out of this nice list.
But one really has to wonder what Hal Lindsey would consult the CIA about... Maybe he knows the solution to K4 of the Kryptos sculpture  More likely though, he's telling them about Christian Fundamentalist trends in the US today, about how these people are still the biggest Zionists in America today, and support Israel with all their might in the US Foreign Policy.
Now, what is your take on the fact that the Key of Solomon became a book on conjuring demons in the Middle Ages? Was that just defamation by the Vatican, as part of their struggle against Freemasonry and Lutheranism? I myself feel that part of the original Templar order perverted their find to gain material wealth, thereby embracing what can loosely be called "the Dark Side".
Later on,
Sol
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EVDebs
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Sol
Riots in Jerusalem were sparked by merely having archeaologic digs NEAR the Temple Mount site not too long ago, Sept 1996
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a022.html
And The Sign and The Seal by Graham Hancock has a brief history of the rioting early in the 1900s when British and American archeologists were digging such tunnels. It gives you pause...Also mentioned in Hancock's book is the Templar crosses found at sites in Ethiopia where the Ark was supposedly moved to before ending up in Axum, according to Hancock's research. The Temple Mount was the Knights Templar HQ and stables area and lots of digging was supposedly done under the Mount, looking for...what ?
No offense on the communications thing I hope. The internet is notoriously unsecure and even this site's filtering is just an assumption.
The Lindsey thing blew me away when I heard of it, also on the web (so, it too must be taken with a grain of salt), but I can't understand why the CIA would want to 'consult' with someone when they would do better by just going to a comparative religion class or a seminary and having 'bull sessions'.
Makes you wonder about what passes for intelligence these days ! Oops, Curveball part deux I suppose.
This Key of Solomon may actually be counter-Reformation forgery material designed to make the KT look like a bunch of satan worshippers, remember the original charges against this order created by the Pope and under his direct and sole control--answerable to no earthly king.
When the loss of the Outremer kingdoms along with Cyprus and all the coastal castles became inevitable, the KT's fate by betrayal became inevitable too, it seems.
KT's took vows of poverty ("..the poor knights of Christ..") and DeMolay, the last Grand Master was himself illiterate and thus an easy mark for the learned Pope and French king who did the dirty deeds of betraying them.
"In the list of charges drawn up by the Inquisition against the Templars on 12 August 1308, there appears the following:
"Item, that in each province the order had idols, namely heads, of which some had three races and some one, and others had a human skull.
Item, that they adored these idols or that idol, and especially in their great chapters and assemblies.
Item, that they venerated (them).
Item, that (they venerated them) as God.
Item, that (they venerated them) as their Savior....
Item, that they said that the head could save them.
Item, that [it could] make riches.
Item, that it made the trees flower.
Item, that [it made] the land germinate.
Item, that they surrounded or touched each head of the aforesaid idols with small cords, which they wore around themselves next to the shirt or the flesh.
Item, that in his reception, the aforesaid small cords or some lengths of them were given to each of the brethren.
Item, that they did this in veneration of an idol.
Item, that they (the receptors) enjoined them (the postulants) on oath not to reveal the aforesaid to anyone."
- The Articles of the Accusations
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/masons/mysteries.html
This goes back to the earlier thread on the Mandillion that I had with other cultofdanbrown readers. The Mandillion and the Shroud of Turin (folded into just showing the head) were one and the same apparently. This is part of the 'head' charges made on them. From that the satanism, homosexuality charges, etc., logically follow. When a smear campaign/inquisition gets going no holds barred.
If the Templars were already wealthy and rich within the order by legitimate means, who would NEED this 'conjuring' abilities ? Only someone needing an excuse to smear them and take that wealth and property...King Philip IV of France and his assistant Pope Clement V, and the Knights Hospitallers (now Knights of Malta), who eventually got much of the KT lands as shown in the Peasants Revolt of Wat Tyler in England of the late 1300s.
If the Priory of Sion was faked, if the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were faked, a will of Howard Hughes, and Priory of Sion 'documents' (that had taken in even Dan Brown), then you can count on political means even in the 14th century to be just as effective fakes. The Templars were devout Catholics betrayed by their leadership the Catholic church heirarcy and a greedy king. The KT didn't swear off religion, just made toleration of others and having a civil tone for debate without bringing religion into the mix a possibility (with a generic sounding TGAOTU, the Great Architect of the Universe) to bring everyone into the fraternity, along with equality and liberty.
Sounds really evil ... unless you support autocratic heirarchies. Which is why the Papal Bulls from the start against Catholics becoming Freemasons, and like anti-Catholic treatment within the ranks of the Freemasonic underground movement, were there.
Of further interest in the Knights Templar/Ethiopian connections, I found this while googling 'templar cross pattee ethiopia' :
"They also had a base in Ethiopia under Emperor Lalibela who then expelled them later. While in Ethiopia, the Templars borrowed heavily from the traditions of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. For example, the well-known "Templar Cross pattee" is that of the Ethiopian Church. Templars wore a cord around their necks in imitation of the religious cord worn by Ethiopian Christians called a "Matab." (The Ethiopians believe that as St Peter was baptising in the River Jordan, he would cut a string from his prayer shawl to tie around the newly baptized person's neck, thus the Coptic tradition still gives out such cords at baptisms and it is also popular in Slavic Orthodox Churches to wear Crosses on cords, rather than chains). Their long white robes were reminiscent of the prayer shawls worn by the Ethiopians etc."
from http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/masons.htm
...which would explain why Templar crosses were found in Ethiopia in the first place. Now, about that "base" mentioned and Emperor Lalibela who expelled them, I'll need to do more research.
Edited by EVDebs (11/21/05 07:48 AM)
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RoseyORyan
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EV Debs,
The motive in the case of Howard Hughes' forged will was money. The motive behind the (alleged) hoax of the Priory of Sion is still not clear...the motive for the document: "Protocols of the Wisemen of Sion" is equally baffling. 
The veneration of heads and the 'sanctity' of the Druid's Cross [ Equal-armed, I prepare for battle!] was nothing new in Europe. Nothing changes! 
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Sol
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EVDebs: wrote:
> Riots in Jerusalem were sparked by merely having archeaologic digs NEAR the Temple Mount site not too long ago.<
Indeed they were, and archeology in that area has become one of the big "stones of contention" as well, hehe. Each side unfortunately has a political agenda to dissassociate the other from the site, but for the moment it's under the complete hegemony of Islam. What amazing finds could be unearthed in the vast caverns under the Old City and the Temple Mount, known as the Zedekiah Caves, if international teams of scientists could be send to objectively survey the place. It's an incredible shame that the Waqf Authorities, who control the site, permit no such survey, and there are very few genuine reoports on those caverns.
For several years now, the Waqf has been renovating the area under "Solomon's Stables", which got filled with junk and rubble over the centuries, and dumping the removed material in nearby Kidron Valley. The cross I was referring to was found in that rubble by some archeologists who have been sifting through it, and there is nothing politically controversial about the location of the find. The Waqf doesn't mind if these archeologists have fun with their rubble, and their findings are of no great value in the scientific world anyway, because none of the artefacts would be found in natural strata, to identify the period.
The photos will soon be published on a website, and showing them to you was the only reason I wanted to write. I'll post the link, and then you can join up in the discussion over there if you want.
By the way, that dig you mention, that sparked the riots in '96, has meanwhile been expanded and consolidated into the "Wailing Wall Tunnel", a grand tourist enterprise which will open soon (they may be waiting for the right political moment to unveil it.) An old water tunnel leads to a room a couple of hundred feet underground, through the glass ceiling of which the huge quarried boulders stones supporting the Temple Mount platform can be seen. One can believe that it was the work of the "Annakim".
EVDebs:
> This Key of Solomon may actually be counter-Reformation forgery material designed to make the KT look like a bunch of satan worshippers <
I agree that this is very likely. The motives for the demonization of any group seeking Reform against Vatican's total hegemony over Europe in the Middle Ages would be highly suspect. In their struggle to suppress knowledge and retain control, the same Barons of Vatican's "Churchianity" in the Middle Ages burned alchemists and natural healers as witches, and turned the Templars into devil-worshippers, later demonized Freemasons by ascribing to them books like the "Key of Solomon".
And they also spawned the various "anti-Illuminati" myths which have been circulating for centuries. What would be so bad about being "illuminated", in other words, "enlightened" - unless somebody didn't want you to see the Light?
And yet there is surely "something there" about the latest "Illuminati world-control" theories, if not necessarily what the people say. In the same way, there was something "real" about the Key of Solomon as well, it wasn't all just Vatican anti-Enlightenment slander. King Solomon's fame as a "conjurer of demons" is known from many sources, and he was known for sealing djinns into bottles even over in India.
I feel that we are talking about acutal "powers" here, and probably actual objects which could enhance those powers. But what are "Demons"? Most likely just Energy Emanations on a level which our present science can't measure yet. Possibly Psi forces of various kinds. And perhaps Solomon simply had a device which enabled him to bring up a holographic image of somebody distant. We basically have something like that already. You have to remember that most of our modern technology would look like "demons" to somebody from the Middle Ages.
The name "Priory of Sion" means nothing, and this should be pretty clear to a serous researcher of Ancient Mysteries. People who really want to spill some Great Truth very seldom do actual finger-pointing, as someone invariably gets badly hurt. Instead, they usually use various veiled clues to point the way. Just like Brown himself had said, in fact!
One would have to figure that if an actual Secret Organization was charged with safekeeping the Grail, they wouldn't be just blurting it out in some Bestseller. That's not good Style and Form for a "True" group like that, it would go against the Lore. So even if they decided to tell, they'd give you the whole story, but change enough names and places so that you couldn't just nab a particular person. That funny French Priory of Sion "fake" from the fifties is a nice angle here, a very fitting dead end to stop somebody not sufficiently dedicated from looking further. Not for nothing is it used as a main debunking tool against Brown's whole thesis.
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are a different story. No objective discussion is really possible of them, because ever since being written, they were used extensively as a philosophical tool on which persecution of Jews in Europe was based. This is a hot issue, yet it's too painful to many for a fair discussion to ensue. The fact that they are usually promoted with an antisemitic intent in mind - does not help the issue.
The protocols themselves are truly most likely a fake made by the Tsarist Police in Russia. Yet the informaton they provide about the "Jewish Conspiracy" is not necessarily false. The thing is - it's a Genetic and Social conspiracy. It's not a Conscious conspiracy, where people get together and say, ok, let's take over the world. It's more a genetic predesposition for success in certain areas, bred after countless generations of unfair competition from the locals. And Riches, of course, have always been considered the Sign of Success through the ages. That is how all our Earthly Hierarchies arose.
All the best,
Sol
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EVDebs
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Sol, good buddy
The more I look into the Templars the more interesting it gets. Chartres Cathedral for example appears to have symbolism built into it by the KT
"There is an extraordinary cathedral in Chartres in northern France, known as a ‘book in stone’. Some say it was built by or for the descendants of the Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon – the Knights Templar – as a way of preserving secret, coded knowledge.
In the north porch of Chartres Cathedral – the first Gothic cathedral – there is a stone pillar with a carving which might just show the Ark of the Covenant being carried away from Jerusalem by Menelik. Underneath is a mysterious inscription: Hic Amititur Archa Cederis. The Latin does not really make sense, although guide books translate Archa Cederis as: ‘you are to work through the Ark’ and the entire inscription as - ‘here things take their course: you are to work through the Ark.’
However, if one assumes cederis to be a corruption of foederis, as some scholars suggest, then the inscription might be translated as: ‘here it is let go, the Ark of the Covenant’
Above the north door of Chartres cathedral – sometimes known as the Door of the Initiates – there is another carving, an eerie procession of kings and queens of the Old Testament. It is the only significant representation of the Old Testament in the cathedral. The story of Menelik was – according to historians – not known in Europe until the 15th century. The re-building of Chartres Cathedral after the Great Fire was started in 1209.
What is a matter of record is that nine knights – led by Hughes de Payens –occupied the original site of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem in 1119. Excavations followed, tunnels, explorations. They appear to have been looking for something. They became known as the Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon." from
http://www.mosselabyrinth.co.uk/web.php?id=565
And fair-haired knights are mentioned at the end of this link...KT ? In Ethiopia ? And why ?
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Sol
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EVDebsp wrote:
> And fair-haired knights are mentioned at the end of this link...KT ? In Ethiopia <
As an aside here, any African legend talking about "fair-haired people" needs to be understood in a social perspective. I have a good friend of Yemenite extraction who has very dark skin, although the Yemenites are considered a Caucasian race. When this man worked in Africa for several years, the locals called him a "whitey", although some had even lighter skin color than his - only because of his non-negroid facial features, and different type of hair. In the same way, the lore about "fair-haired" could mean any Caucasian people from the Eastern Mediterranean and even Northern Egyptians, and wouldn't necessarily be referring to blond Europeans from further north.
We must also take with a grain of salt the information about the story of Menelik "not being known" in Europe until the 15th Century. There were few literate people back then, and information came only from certain quarters. And many of the writings of the few who did know how to write - weren't preserved for various reasons. What we know about the histrory of the Middle Ages comes from several particular slants and agendas, and the rest is Oral Tradition, which was written up only a couple of centuries later. There was also no Internet then, and much easier to keep a secret, hehe.
According to "weird historians" like Laurence Gardner, who has some great research into the lore of various obscure orders - the story of Menelik and his taking the Ark to Elephantine island was well known in Europe even around the time of Jesus, to such strange organizations as "the Order of St. Columba", and "the Court of Pendragon". Needless to say, their secret traditions didn't get much air-time in the mainstream, and still don't in fact. Many of the more vocal ones, like the Cathars and Albigensians, were exterminated. Much of it has been preserved in the hermetic alchemical tradition of Europe though.
The Knights Templar were certainly a lively bunch, and stories about them do get more interesting all the time. Those guys sure got around, if they did even half of everything ascribed to them. By the way, for a while they even ruled some provinces in the Western part of Moscovite Rus. There are some Mideaval Templar stories from that area as well.
And speaking of interesting things about the Templars, check out this nice heretical link, before they take it down. A pretty well researched piece.
http://www.alchemylab.com/cannabis_stone1.htm .
And here's a good link describing that dig through the rubble of Temple Mount:
http://www.har-habayt.org/index.html
Finally, seeing as you like reading so much (:-), here's a nice and lengthy chapter on the founding of the First Masonic Lodge in Modern Palestine, in 1870. The ceremony took place in the Zedekia Caverns under the Temple Mount, and I feel that it has a direct bearing on our Greater Tale here.
http://www.freemasonry.org/leonzeldis/1st%20Lodge.htm
Later on,
Sol
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EVDebs
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Sol
Interesting stuff. The Russian Freemasonry left out something. The 1917 Revolt of Alexander Kerensky was done by Masons, Kerensky himself being one from what I've heard.
" Although Prince Georgy Lvov found himself at the head of the new government, the actual leader was freemason and socialist Alexander Kerensky."
http://www.vor.ru/English/homeland/home_027.html
...which explains why the Communists sought to root out the secret society. Even recently, prior to 1990, CBS's 60 Minutes had Morely Safer almost being attacked in Red Square, by some Soviet's who appeared to have served in Afganistan, who repeatedly claimed Safer was a 'freemason'.
In any event. My research on the Grail legend still leads me to believe that the stone connected to the myth in Eshenbach's Stone from the Stars
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/gnosis/wolfram.html
The Ark contained the stone tablets...'stones that fell from the heavens', so there's a fine allegory if I ever heard one.
Also, I mentioned somewhere before on the web that someone posted Graal as being spelled backwards La Arg and being a possible cryptic for The Ark. Speculation for sure but more likely than anything Dan Brown has hung his hat on with the likes of the Priory of Sion in the DVC.
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Sol
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Quote:
EVDebs wrote:
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/gnosis/wolfram.html
What's up EV,
That's a great link, I love the Mistae site, been reading it for years, very informative stuff. It's not always easy to follow the thread of thought, as it's all basically just a collection of quotes, but one can get used to it.
Many interesting ideas there. The Grail as a Stone from Heaven can relate to the old Sumerian "Annunaki", translated as "those who came from the sky (heaven)", what later was made into "nefilim" in Hebrew. That of course ties into Enoch's "fallen angels", from which the subsequent Christian imagery of Lucifer as a Bright Star falling from the Heavens was made (in fact it was just a bad translation of Isaiah 14:12 made in Alexandria, as Velikovsky showed.)
By the way, the Islamic lore says that as-Sakhra, the stone of Mohammed and Abraham from the Dome of the Rock, is also a "stone that fell from the stars", which scientists take to mean an ordinary meterorite.
There were also those two very mysterious stones Urim and Tummim, spoken of in the Book of Exodus in the "Rules pertaining to the Arc of the Covenant", when describing the Priest's garmets. Exodus 28:15-29 describes the "breatspiece of judgement" made of twelve crystals, and 28:30 mentions the two unknown stones, aslo used in judgement. An altogether a very mysterious and highly "pagan" article here, undeniably some great mystery is involved, and right when talkng about the Arc.
What they say about the Grail as a Rejuvenating Substance is possibly also very pertinent. There is no d | |
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