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8549176320abc
enthusiast


Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 219
Loc: UK
Climate change new
      #8716 - 04/24/07 08:52 AM

I am a climate change sceptic, I am also a scientist. I have been serching for the 'proof' people talk about existing for climate change and I havent found it. I've offered this in a few other places on the web to try and get peoplew who have the answers to notice. If anyone can provide me with evidence that human CO2 is causing average anual tempearature to rise then could they please email me at me_lkjhgfdsa@hotmail.co.uk and I'll give them £50. Seriosly I don't think it's out there so if you can give me something better than two graphs that line up then I'll give you £50.

--------------------
Governments offer us safety for our freedom. It is by seeing this safety as false that we are freed.

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Arras
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Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
Re: Climate change new [Re: 8549176320abc]
      #8721 - 04/26/07 12:29 AM

Unless you're a climatologist well-versed in the field of climate change and familiar with the extensive body of peer-reviewed research on the subject, as a scientist you should have to agree that your skepticism in this case is the product of ignorance (willful or otherwise).

The debate over climate change these days parallels the debate over the causal link between smoking and lung cancer that raged for decades. Despite mounting evidence that this causal link existed, there were always a few "scientists" happy to take money from the tobacco companies to fund studies that tried to show the opposite. Today it's the oil and petrochemical companies offering to sponsor "scientists" willing to go against the tide of established consensus in the scientific community. What these "scientists" allow their sponsors to achieve in the process is the illusion of a dissenting scientific opinion, which helps sow doubt in the minds of the general public, and encourages inaction.

I'm a scientist myself, but not a climatologist, so I'm no more qualified to pass judgment on the work of researchers who have studied climate change for decades than I am to second-guess the judgment of a neurosurgeon. As a scientist, I have confidence in the peer-review systems that subject extraordinary claims to extraordinary scrutiny. Bad science is exposed on a daily basis this way. As a result, then, when I read that 18 of the most respected names in the field of climatology have achieved agreement about the causal link between man-made carbon dioxide emissions and the exacerbation of the climate change cycle, and that many more will be joining them at the IPCC, I'm inclined to believe them.

And to be clear, what little debate remains is not about climate change itself--there's widespread agreement regarding the historical record of the planet's temperature cycle, from ice age to ice age, and no doubt at all that this is a natural process that predates human activity.

The debate, then, is over the notion that human activity might have done anything to affect the amplitude of that temperature cycle, exaggerating the highs and the lows beyond their cyclical norms. On that front there's quite a lot of available temperature data to use to establish what those cyclical norms have been--everything from tree ring spacings to deep ice core strata lets us establish a baseline going back several ice ages.

What we begin to see in the temperature record, though, is an exaggeration of the normal cycle around the time human beings started large-scale agrarian operations, several thousand years ago. The raising of sheep and cattle in large numbers seems to have been responsible for enough methane production to make a small but significant impact on the temperature cycle [ref]. Certainly as our population grew we only amplified this effect.

But the most striking deviations from the cyclical norms can be found in the late 1800's, coincident with the Industrial Revolution. Since then we've seen the deviations grow ever more steeply, to the point that climatologists worry that the temperature cycle itself may be altered as a result.

Quite apart from this debate about causes, though, is the reality that our climate is changing, and that this is going to have a profound impact on every living creature on the planet. If our activities have been making matters worse, we obviously need to take action to remedy the situation. This is one of those cases where it's far better to be safe than sorry--if we are stressing the planet's climatological stability and we don't take action to halt that process, the consequences are dire for all of us. When the stakes are that high, erring on the side of caution is the only sane course.

In the end, you need to ask yourself about the source of your skepticism, as that will probably be more telling than anything else. It may be a case of "mistrusting the messenger" if you just don't like some of the celebrities that have taken up the message. My advice to a fellow scientist would be to invest your £50 in a subscription to Scientific American, Discover, or any number of more scholarly scientific journals that focus on the field of climatology (e.g. the International Journal of Climatology, the Journal of Climate, the Journal of Applied Meteorology and Climatology, etc.). Brush up on the research itself to get your information first-hand, rather than letting an actor or a politician try to sway your opinion with an oversimplified explanation; their hearts are usually in the right place, but in "dumbing down" the details for the masses they invariably leave more detail-oriented thinkers wanting. Fortunately those detail-oriented thinkers have the power to follow the research to the source--it's just a matter of investing the time and effort to do so.

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AAnnAArchyAdministrator
Gifted Procrastinator


Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
Loc: Las Vegas
Re: Climate change new [Re: Arras]
      #8722 - 04/26/07 11:45 AM

Bunch of numbers guy, I'd say that you owe Arras £50. But, he's nice enough to want you to spend it wisely on research material. So, take him up on it.

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8549176320abc
enthusiast


Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 219
Loc: UK
Re: Climate change new [Re: AAnnAArchy]
      #8747 - 06/13/07 08:12 AM

Ok my point of view.:
The only reason I'm skeptical is that I'm skeptical about everything that I haven't seen the evidence for. I haven't seen any convincing evidence yet that the greenhouse effect has significantly changed the temperature on earth in the past and that it will do in the future.
I have seen the graphs everyone has linking CO2 and temperature but I'm not sure that the correlation of the two implies causality between them. I also accept that the mean temperature has been going up since somewhere around the time of the industrial revolution, but again I haven't seen evidence that the two are causally linked. For me the idea that atmospheric concentration of CO2 causes the temperature variations is to degrade all the other factors that make up the climate like albedo, solar variation etc.

And also have you herd any scientist who has been employed by the oil industry talking about climate change? I haven't. Have you herd any scientists employed by Greenpeace and similar organizations? Yes - lots of them.

But seriously I'm trying to be open minded about this - what convinced you? Was it the number of scientists who are convinced, the close connection between mean temperature and atmospheric CO2, the protectionist principle of taking action just in case there is a danger?

--------------------
Governments offer us safety for our freedom. It is by seeing this safety as false that we are freed.

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Arras
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Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
Re: Climate change new [Re: 8549176320abc]
      #8748 - 06/13/07 04:59 PM

Quote:

8549176320abc said:
The only reason I'm skeptical is that I'm skeptical about everything that I haven't seen the evidence for.




Fair enough. In that case, what has kept you from following your curiosity to the scientific literature itself (the journals I mentioned in my previous reply)? That's where the evidence you're looking for is being presented and discussed by the world's climatologists. That's where the peer review process is taking place, where the "bad" or "weak" science is being exposed and the "good" or "strong" science is being bolstered. All that stands between you and the evidence you seek is the cost of a journal subscription, or a trip to a university library.

Quote:

8549176320abc said:
I haven't seen any convincing evidence yet that the greenhouse effect has significantly changed the temperature on earth in the past and that it will do in the future.




Then perhaps what you need is a more basic primer on climatology, something more suited to a first-year university curriculum. The greenhouse effect is a well-understood phenomenon, and even those scientists who dispute human activity as a causal factor have no trouble agreeing that the greenhouse effect raises the temperature inside the "greenhouse"--see Venus for an extreme example of the greenhouse effect at work.

Quote:

8549176320abc said:
I have seen the graphs everyone has linking CO2 and temperature but I'm not sure that the correlation of the two implies causality between them. I also accept that the mean temperature has been going up since somewhere around the time of the industrial revolution, but again I haven't seen evidence that the two are causally linked. For me the idea that atmospheric concentration of CO2 causes the temperature variations is to degrade all the other factors that make up the climate like albedo, solar variation etc.




You're not wrong to be suspicious of any single-factor correlation, of course; no one is suggesting that any one factor is solely responsible for climate change. You may notice, for instance, that we talk less about "CO2" these days than about "greenhouse gases" (GHGs)--methane is another culprit, and a number of studies point to farming and composting on a large scale as indirect human contributions to climate change.

Of the other factors you mentioned, albedo is closely related to the greenhouse effect--higher albedo results as the greenhouse effect intensifies, due to increased cloud cover, which is more reflective. Venus, again, is a good example of this--it looks so bright to us precisely because it's shrouded in clouds.

As for solar variation, the solar cycle is certainly something that climatologists take into account. The sun's cycle is relatively short--11 years--so we've certainly had time to track dozens of solar cycles by now and look for climatological impacts based on that variation. Longer-term variations due to the aging of the sun can be extrapolated from our understanding of the lifecycle of stars, and in any case would not have changed significantly for millions of years--nothing recent enough to account for the changes we've seen in our climate over the past couple of centuries.

In other words there are certainly multiple factors contributing to the changing of our climate, and some of these are going to be more significant than others. Some--like the solar cycle--are always going to be beyond our ability to control, but others--like the human contribution to the production of GHGs--are factors that we can do something about.

The scientific case is that we've got data going back hundreds of thousands of years--several ice age cycles--that tells us what the "natural" climate cycles look like for this planet. The advent of human activity on a mass scale seems to have altered these cycles somewhat, and increasingly so over the past few centuries. The numbers are so far out of whack with the predicted cyclical values that we have to look back over this relatively brief period of our planet's history and ask, "what has changed?" We don't see any significant solar output changes to account for it, and we know where we stand in the ice-age cycle, so without sufficient natural causes to explain this sharp deviation from cyclical norms we turn to human causes--the overproduction of GHGs.

Quote:

8549176320abc said:
And also have you herd any scientist who has been employed by the oil industry talking about climate change? I haven't. Have you herd any scientists employed by Greenpeace and similar organizations? Yes - lots of them.




Well, for starters you're not likely to hear from a scientist who openly works for the oil and petrochemical industry; once any such link is discovered that scientist is all but discredited, so it usually takes some detective work to find the link back to the corporate sponsors of their research. "Follow the money," as they say.

By the same token, though, a climatologist who writes papers funded by environmental groups is just as easy to discredit, for the same reason--bias. When you're paid to find something, you're going to find it, one way or the other.

The best science lies somewhere in the middle, but it can be hard to spot without "following the money." What often happens is that a scientist publishes her work at a reputable university or institute, and based on her findings her report will be touted by either the oil companies or the environmental groups as the "proof" they're after. Neither of them sponsored the research in this case, but they're happy to cite the findings everywhere they can, which can lead readers to mistakenly think the research was sponsored. As always, turn your skepticism on the facts of the matter and find out who paid for the research. Or simply read the journals, which require full disclosure of such facts before a paper will be published.

Quote:

8549176320abc said:
But seriously I'm trying to be open minded about this - what convinced you? Was it the number of scientists who are convinced, the close connection between mean temperature and atmospheric CO2, the protectionist principle of taking action just in case there is a danger?




Primarily I have faith in the peer-review system, which should have torn apart any unsound science by now. I don't have to be intimately familiar with all of the details--I trust that people who have devoted their entire careers to the study of climatology know what they're doing, and that they police themselves as well as do the rest of us in the scientific community. If someone in my field of specialization published a paper that made wild, unsubstantiated claims, you can bet that I would not be alone in calling him on it. In this way, the "strong" science survives and the "weak" science perishes. It doesn't matter how much money was behind the research, or how elegant the model is, if it can't stand up to close scrutiny and experiment it's not going anywhere. That the current climatological model has held up for more than thirty years speaks volumes about it.

That said, the protectionist argument is also compelling, in that we can hardly afford to be wrong when the stakes are so high. If we take action now and it turns out we didn't need to, then at least life goes on. But if we don't take action now and it turns out action was needed, then we're screwed. Taking action in this case is the "safe" bet--it will cost us money, rather than our only habitat.

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kasey
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Reged: 07/22/08
Posts: 4
Re: Climate change new [Re: 8549176320abc]
      #9012 - 07/22/08 10:44 AM

I completely agree with you 8549176320abc because I think that the current emission of CO2 into the atmosphere isn't enough to cause the speed of global warming. I think that geography comes into the debate somewhere but as it is I'm not going to be listened to for obvious reasons but I don't care. I know i'm right about the difference in CO2 emissions and the rate of global warming - if indeed it is global warming at all, it could be a climate shift - I think that humanity isn't entirely to blame.
(I apologize for any spelling mistakes)

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TantraLaughter
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Reged: 06/06/08
Posts: 12
Re: Climate change [Re: 8549176320abc]
      #9022 - 08/08/08 06:09 PM

That's very odd. The debate about whether climate change is occuring or not is not in question. What is under study are the various influences, components, relationships, global and regional effects and how this will affect life and life support systems around the globe in the short and long term.

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tieptSymnPype
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