vbn
stranger
Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Canada
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Hello Dan Brown fans,
I'm sure you've all heard that some people believe that the Da Vinci Code story was taken from Lewis Perdue's 3 previous books (Daugther of God, Linz Testament and the Da Vinci Legacy).
Has anyone read the Daughter of God?
I can't beleive that some people say they are similar. I really didn't find that. The story is different and the writing styles are also very different.
There are some similarities but what book doesn't have a good guy running away from the bad guy (who is accusing him of something). And how can you compare 3 books with 1 book?
(Wow! The hero's age is between 30-40 in both books!!) 
I have lots to say on this subject since I've actually read the Daughter of God. I'd like to read the Legacy as well.
I'd like to hear what you think about this controversy and what you think of Perdue's books if you're read them.
Thanks,
Vanessa
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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I've read legacy. It is similar in some respects, but wildly different in its interpretations. Legacy is concerned with Da Vinci's technical inventions, DVC with his art. The main character in legacy, however, is really pathetic. Not at all sympathetic.
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"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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vbn
stranger
Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Canada
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Hi,
What version of Legacy did you read? The 1983 version is one that supposedly is similar to Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code.
Sounds like you didn't find it to be too similar.
I hope they rule in favor of Dan Brown as I find the books totally different (at least the one I've read).
Thanks,
Vanessa
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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I didn't know there were versions... I am not sure which one I read, but no, it was not too similar other than the fact that both used Da Vinci as a starting point.
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"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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vbn
stranger
Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Canada
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Hi Sephia,
Yes, the 1983 book "The DaVinci Legacy" is the one that supposedly has lots of similarities to the DaVinci Code. I read the 2004 version of Legacy because I wanted to see if it was true, but it obviously was totally different (since it was published after the Da Vinci Code).
I guess that most people haven't read Perdue's books...
Any comments from others?
Vanessa
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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Oh, wait, you mean it was the same story republished in 2004? In that case, I think it was that one that I read... I remember wondering how old it was, since I think it mentioned 9/11.
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"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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LewisPerdue
newbie
Reged: 05/06/05
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Loc: Sonoma, California
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Updating the 1983 edition was my editor's idea and, while she is almost always right, it was a bad idea this time.
However, NOTHING substantial was changed, nothing that affects the plot, the action etc.
What was done in this hasty update? A few things, like people pay in Euros now and not in Lire like they did when I wrote this in 1983. The Last Supper has been restored. Stuff like that.
The Hero's name was changed (too many sssss's: Curtis Davis ... say it aloud... the change was to Vance Erikson, but the name change didn't get transferred to the cover on the first printing. The change was made on the second and third printings so maybe the first ones will be collector's items.
Anyone who says the updates were made to make it appear more like Da Vinci Code are incorrect and either have not read the books or have an ulterior motive.
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said" -- Mark Twain
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AAnnAArchy
Gifted Procrastinator
Reged: 10/20/03
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Loc: Las Vegas
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Hey, do you think if people keep dissing Dan Brown (and they will), he'll show up too?  It looks like everyone in this thread agreed that your books were different from the DVC.
I admit, I haven't read your books yet. But Curtis Davis to Vance Erikson? Couldn't his friends just call him Curt to eliminate the ssssss problem?
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LewisPerdue
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Well, the author name issue was my editor's and ... well, it was a mistake. Pure and simple. I went along and did not protest and it's equally my fault.
As for the books being different, I don't think that people have read both Da Vinci Legacy and Daughter of God, both of which were plagiarized.
This particular legal filing -- http://www.davincilegacy.com/Infringement/PerduevBrown-Amended-010605.pdf -- describes the hundreds of things "borrrowed" and this blog -- http://davincicrock.blogspot.com/ -- talks about some of the recent developments including last Friday's court hearing.
Dan Brown refuses to testify under oath that he didn't rip my books off.
It's also very curious that the "Vanessa" that started off this posting seems to have spent a lot of time making almost identical posts on a lot of blogs, including my own. The language "she" uses fits the same mold as the Random House legal team's.
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said" -- Mark Twain
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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wow...another conspiracy... WHO IS THE MYSTERIOUS "VANESSA"?
I'll admit that I haven't read "Daughter of God", yet, but Da Vinci Legacy seems to focus on a different aspect of Da Vinci's inventions--more the technological and scientific stuff than the artistic.
My assumption (and this is only an assumption) is that using some of the same research materials caused the similarities. The theory discussed in DVC is outlined in "historical" accounts, but there is a limited number that deal with this subject.
Disclaimer: I am not associated with either author or publishing company!
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"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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AAnnAArchy
Gifted Procrastinator
Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
Loc: Las Vegas
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What I can say about Vanessa is that her sign up information checks out. She is in Canada, just like she says. Other than that, I have no idea who she is or what Random House does online. Maybe she's just a big Dan Brown fan, who knows.
Sephia <<My assumption (and this is only an assumption) is that using some of the same research materials caused the similarities. The theory discussed in DVC is outlined in "historical" accounts, but there is a limited number that deal with this subject.>>
That's what Mudpuppy opined this morning when we were talking about the thread. Neither of us have read Lewis Perdue's books, so we can only go by what other people say for now. Soon, our huge stack of unread books will diminish (we had $500 in Amazon g/c, plus we joined the paperback book club, so we suddenly had tons of books) and we'll check out Mr. Perdue's books. I'm not beholden to a belief either way, and I'm always up for a good read.
I read a little of your blog, Mr. Perdue (shall I just call you Lewis - it's a message board, I feel weird being formal) and I do find it interesting that Dan Brown won't testify. I just skimmed it, but what is his reasoning? Does he figure that he doesn't need to bother and that Random House and their lawyers will fight his battle for them? I have to admit, even if my book was completely original, I wouldn't want to testify either. I had to give a deposition once and I found it tedious. If someone could've taken care of it for me, I would've let them. Especially if I was a gazillionaire. Plus, I'm kinda fond of Dan Brown because he's been so nice to our (Cryptex) Justin.
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AAnnAArchy
Gifted Procrastinator
Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
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Okay, I've gone to Amazon and ordered three Lewis Perdue books. I've no dog in this fight (the name of the site comes from a friend's local bookseller regarding the Dan Brown phenomenon and we thought it was catchy), so I'll be reading them with an open mind. I paid for cheapie shipping, so I won't have them for a while though.
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LewisPerdue
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Posts: 43
Loc: Sonoma, California
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Your assumption about the shared historical research is a reasonable to start with. There are a couple of things to consider about this:
First of all, the _expression_ of the history, how it is interpreted and written -- in other words, the stuff coming out of the author's head is what is protected. And those are things that were copied.
Second, Dan Brown refuses to testify under oath that he did or did not do the research, and so any of the Random Arguments based on this are legally invalid.
In fact, Random House has refused to allow Dan Brown to file an affidavit attesting that he did NOT rip off my books or that he actually wrote The Da Vinci Code.
I testified under oath. Why not Dan Brown? An affidavit is an easy no-brainer. Yet, their failure to do so basically means that they are admitting defeat on huge amounts of their previous arguments, such as the shared historical research.
One of the first things one learns in debate is that if there is an easy way to silence the other side on an issue, you do that and move on. Affidavits are as easy as things come, yet they have not done that. Why?
It might be interesting for people to look at the data first hand.
This page: http://www.davincilegacy.com/Infringement/ has all the legal filings.
In addition, this page has some other interesting facts: http://davincicrock.blogspot.com/
Of all the legal filings, the following two specifically delineate the plagiarism:
http://www.davincilegacy.com/Infringement/PerduevBrown-Amended-010605.pdf
http://www.davincilegacy.com/Infringement/Perdue-April8-Filings/index.shtml
There is also an expert witness report from John Olsson, head of the Forensic Linguistics Institute in the U.K. His data can be found (also under oath) here:
http://www.davincilegacy.com/Infringement/Perdue-April8-Filings/Declaration%20Gabriel%20Olsson.pdf
If the .pdf images from court documents are not clear enough, it's also found here:
http://www.davincilegacy.com/Infringement/expert-report.html
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said" -- Mark Twain
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LewisPerdue
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Lew/Lewis -- works fine for me.
One of the reasons that "Vanessa" raises my suspicion is that she started this thread with the _typical_ Random House strategy: Try to find ONE (of many) similarities, argue it to death and try to make people think it it the ONLY similarity to be found.
For example, her first post, "There are some similarities but what book doesn't have a good guy running away from the bad guy (who is accusing him of something). And how can you compare 3 books with 1 book?(Wow! The hero's age is between 30-40 in both books!!)"
Makes you think that the age is the only similarity.
But if you go here:
http://www.davincilegacy.com/Infringement/private/PerdueBrown-Hero-similarities.html
You find many. Sure, having three or four or five of these could be coincidence but when they start to pile on, the credibility of the coincidence decreases.
What's more, Random House actually LIED in their April 22 filing to try and make the heroes look different.
The following is a post from http://davincicrock.blogspot.com:
Q. When Is a Bachelor NOT a Bachelor?
A. When it suits Random House's litigation goals.
Beginning on page 29 of its Feb. 22, 2005 Memorandum (http://www.davincilegacy.com/Infringement/RH-filings-022505/%282005-02-25%29%20Perdue%20-%20Pltf%20MOL.pdf) of Law,</a> Random states: "Unlike the married Ridgeway, Langdon has a "life-long affinity for bachelorhood and the simple freedoms it allowed."
BUT RANDOM HOUSE PERVERTS THE ENTIRE MEANING BY TAKING THAT OUT OF CONTEXT!
The quote as it appears in context from DV Code reads:
"Langdon had never harbored delusions that a woman like Vittoria Vetra could have been happy living with him on a college campus, but their encounter in Rome had unlocked in him a longing he never imagined he could feel. His lifelong affinity for bachelorhood and the simple freedoms it allowed had been shaken somehow. . . replaced by an unexpected emptiness that seemed to have grown over the past year."
In FACT, Langdon is in the IDENTICAL -- not similar, identical -- state of mind as heroes Curtis Davis (DV Legacy) and Seth Ridgeway (Daughter of God).
In fact, Davis and Ridgeway -- like Langdon -- have lost their true love about a year before we see them.
Despite the Random House distortion of this issue, all three men are identical in most ways, including their emotional state when the book begins and their motivations.
Just look for yourself at my original legal filing (starting on page 40) or this section (starting on page 3) from John Olsson's report.
Those show men that are triplets right down to their psychological quirks.
Random House's every attempt at creating some distance between Langdon and the Heroes in DV Legacy and DoG fail in precisely the same ways: distortions, out-of-context quotes and omissions.
If you're going to argue differences, try "the truth, the WHOLE truth and nothing but the truth."
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said" -- Mark Twain
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LewisPerdue
newbie
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Daughter of God is far more similar to DVCode than DVLegacy .. perhaps 1/3 of the infringements come from DVL and 2/3 from Daughter.
Daughter is a lot better written than my 1983 DV Legacy.
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said" -- Mark Twain
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AAnnAArchy
Gifted Procrastinator
Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
Loc: Las Vegas
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I sure wish it was Angels & Demons that was in question, because I'd like to read that book again. I'm not sure I want to spend my time reading DVC again, even though I liked it the first time.
Hopefully, when I read Daughter of God, I'll have my "aha!" moments without having to read DVC. I'm lazy and I have about thirty books sitting in a stack waiting to be read.
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LewisPerdue
newbie
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Actually, I'm starting to get emails telling me that I should take a closer look at A&D for plagiarism.
I am struck by how this situation so closely resembles the early stages of the Da Vinci Code issue. Then, as now, I was too busy to deal with the issue and chalked the similarities up to things that probably were not protected anyway.
That did not change until I read DVCode. I have not read A&D, but the more emails I get, the more I think we may have the same issues here.
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said" -- Mark Twain
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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The chart at http://www.davincilegacy.com/Infringement/private/PerdueBrown-Hero-similarities.html is rather interesting, though a few things, such as the hair color, are stretches. The motivations, saving own life and that of a friend or love interest are so common that I doubt they will make much of an impression. Saving ones own life is also a motivation for the main character in many Sidney Sheldon books, though there are no more similarities.
A few things, such as the professions, are good points, though this is the best way to have a knowledgeable main character along to explain the history and whatnot.
The "quest" and "phobia" categories are good points.
I am not sure about the villian similarities, since Aringarossa(sp?) is not the primary villian in DVC, just a misguided and tricked churchman.
I know I'm arguing both sides right now. Until I read "Daughter of God" I can't really say.
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"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
Edited by Sephia (05/09/05 10:45 AM)
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AAnnAArchy
Gifted Procrastinator
Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
Loc: Las Vegas
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Just a quick point - seems normal that both authors would choose professors as their main character, since both are professors in real life.
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LewisPerdue
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You've raised very good questions ...I would agree that any two or three or five things could easily be dismissed as coincidence. However, what are the changes of ALL of them being there?
And for the SAME language being used to describe them?
And of the same number of similarities for the Heroine ... and the plot .... and ... ?
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said" -- Mark Twain
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vbn
stranger
Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Canada
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OK. I hope this unravels the mystery!
- I've read all of Dan Brown's books.
- I heard about the controversy.
- I decided that in order to comment on this issue, I should read the books involved in this debate. So I read the Daughter of God and The Da Vinci Legacy (2004).
(I then realized that there was a 1983 version of Legacy, and I thought that it was different so that's why I said that it was re-written. So my apologies for saying it was re-written and not updated).
- So after reading the books, I personally thought that they were different enough in style and content. I didn't get the feeling that I've read either of the books before. (I also had a look at the legal fillings including the comparison tables.)
- I'm interested in the controversy enough to want to discuss it with people. Since I personally don't know anyone who has read all of the books, I thought I'd try people on the Internet. I thought it would be interesting to see what other people thought of this issue.
– I did a web search on Da Vinci and found blogs that talked about this legal issue. So when I can comment, and I am happy to comment.
– I am not affiliated to any publishing organization.
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vbn
stranger
Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Canada
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Oops! I forgot to sign my name in the last post.
I guess that is important.
"Vanessa"
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AAnnAArchy
Gifted Procrastinator
Reged: 10/20/03
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Vanessa, give me a few weeks and I'll have an opinion for you. I ordered from Amazon, but got my free shipping, so it takes longer. I'm interested to see if the board can come to a consensus.
At the very least, Lew, we're trying to make you more money so we can do the comparisons. It's a small bit of consolation, but it's something.
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vbn
stranger
Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Canada
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AAnnAArchy, Great! I will look forward to discussing this with you.
Vanessa
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LewisPerdue
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Vanessa ... If I have unfairly maligned you, my apologies. It's just that your posts and arguments appear cut from the same cloth of the Random House language. Obviously I could be mistaken.
That said, it is not a valid argument to seize on a single similarity and make it seem as if that is all there is.
As I have said before, The case against The Da Vinci Code has many different parts, but one of them is forensic evidence, specifically forensic linguistics. And like any case built upon the accumulation of forensic evidence, those parts of my case based on forensic linguistics must be considered as a whole.
If you look at a forensic case it would be very easy for defendants to try and deconstruct things (as Random House is doing with my case) and focus on one single hair, one single fiber.
Focusing on that one hair (or three or four) among hundreds, the defense will try and make a big deal out of it AS IF it is the only piece of evidence to be considered. If a defense attorney can distract people into BELIEVING that this is the only hair that matters, then they have the opportunity to subvert the process of finding the truth.
In reality, the forensic part of this case -- like any other forensic case -- is built piece by piece by piece. And in cases like this there comes a time when, according to experts such as John Olsson of the Forensic Linguistics Institute, so many pieces accumulate that it is simply not believable that they all "just happened" by accident.
Random House and its supporters attempt this sort of distraction time and again, focusing on just one piece of an incredible chain of remarkable similarities, failing to address all of the others, in hopes they will distract you from the overwhelming nature of the evidence.
The forensic part of our case does not hinge on one item or ten or twenty. For the sake of argument, we could throw away every such focus of distraction and not weaken the overall case.
For, when it all comes down to it, how can all those similarities in characters, plot, themes, motivations, action sequence, symbolism and all the rest have "just happened" by accident?
AAnnAArchy: thanks for the thoughts and open mind.
"At the very least, Lew, we're trying to make you more money so we can do the comparisons. It's a small bit of consolation, but it's something."
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said" -- Mark Twain
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LewisPerdue
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AAnnAArchy: thanks for the thoughts and open mind. I appreciate your statement:
"At the very least, Lew, we're trying to make you more money so we can do the comparisons."
But please realize that other than making sure our two kids have a college education taken care of, if we win anything from this case, my wife and I have decided that it will go to non-profits such as those we already support (see http://www.booksnblues.org as one example.)
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said" -- Mark Twain
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LewisPerdue
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Vanessa: something interesting here in your posts. In your first one, #3213 - 04/01/05 06:57 AM which started this thread:
"I have lots to say on this subject since I've actually read the Daughter of God. I'd like to read the Legacy as well."
Then Post: #3621 - 05/09/05 05:11 PM
"- I decided that in order to comment on this issue, I should read the books involved in this debate. So I read the Daughter of God and The Da Vinci Legacy (2004)....- So after reading the books, I personally thought that they were different enough in style and content. I didn't get the feeling that I've read either of the books before. (I also had a look at the legal fillings including the comparison tables.)
- I'm interested in the controversy enough to want to discuss it with people. Since I personally don't know anyone who has read all of the books, I thought I'd try people on the Internet. I thought it would be interesting to see what other people thought of this issue.
– I did a web search on Da Vinci and found blogs that talked about this legal issue. So when I can comment, and I am happy to comment."
SIGNIFICANTLY -- Your first post said you had NOT read Legacy. Then your most recent one said that after reading BOTH books, you went looking for a forum to discuss things.
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said" -- Mark Twain
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vbn
stranger
Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Canada
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I read Daughter of God in February 2005 and The Da Vinci Legacy (edition 2004) in March 2005.
When I first posted here (April 1, 2005), I thought that Legacy (edition 1983) was the book involved in the dispute, and subsequently thought I had not read the correct edition.
That's what I meant by saying I wanted to read Legacy as well, i.e. the 1983 edition.
(I keep track of the dates as I am part of a book club.)
Vanessa
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LewisPerdue
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Good reply.
You obviously have a right to your opinion and to be heard. It just concerns me that someone who has read the detailed comparisons would start an entire thread that gives a false impression that the only similarities in the books fall into the categories you describe:
"There are some similarities but what book doesn't have a good guy running away from the bad guy (who is accusing him of something). And how can you compare 3 books with 1 book?
(Wow! The hero's age is between 30-40 in both books!!)"
There are obviously many more if you look at things. Your post seemed designed to elicit a given point of view and ... coincidentally? ... that just happens to be the Random House party line, and the argument ("The hero's age is between 30-40 in both books!!") framed in the same way as them.
As I said before, I could be wrong about this and it's all coincidence.
After all, I was pretty well convinced back in the summer of 2003 that I was wrong about the plagiarism and it was all coincidence...until the forensic and other experts did their analysis.
Ahhhhhh ... who knows? Maybe I need to go back to wearing my aluminum foil baseball caps to keep the CIA and Random House's lawyers from reading my brain waves ;->
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"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said" -- Mark Twain
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vbn
stranger
Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 17
Loc: Canada
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Lewis,
I started the tread with the age similarity just because that’s how I started it. There are more similarities that I don’t agree with, but I didn’t want to point them out in the first thread.
I started the thread that way because I just don’t find that the novels are similar enough. Yes, if you look at the comparison tables, it seems that there are a lot of similarities, but taken in context, those similarities aren’t really that similar.
Also, what books don't have similarities with other books, and at what point are the similarites considered either historical facts, stock elements or ideas. When is something considered plagiarized?
Anyway, I guess what you are saying is that there are just too many similarities throughout the books to think that they were written independently.
Well, I will re-look at the tables of comparisons again.
Vanessa
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