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Books with Similar Themes >> Umberto Eco

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Honesty
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Foucault's Pendulum
      #724 - 03/06/04 12:11 AM

Give that this site is devoted to Dan Brown whose popularity has been sealed due to the marketing of The Da Vinci Code I'm quite surprised that there is no thread regarding Foucault's Pendulum; Eco's superior conspiracy satire.

Has anyone read it? If so, discuss.

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poiaModerator
The Modeleter


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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Honesty]
      #739 - 03/06/04 12:27 PM

As you noticed, "the Name of the Rose" is more popular and much easier to read, when "Foucault's Pendulum" sometimes is close to torture.:) I've enjoyed reading it and I agree with you when you say "superior conspiracy satire", but don't disgrace it by comparing it with "the DaVinci Code"
I read the "DVC" and I liked it, but it is a commercial book (easy read, predictable, some information, romance and fun), but your average reader will pick DVC over Foucault's Pendulum. Say, how many people do you think read about all is said in DVC before this book hit the stands? Not many, I assure you.
Back to our topic: I read it years ago and it is a good mystery and history lesson with challenging material. Eco makes a masterful job in connections and observations from actual history. And only with great patience one who reads it will be rewarded at the end.
Have fun!

--------------------
"OK, so what's the speed of dark?"S.W.


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Honesty
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: poia]
      #744 - 03/06/04 10:50 PM

The predictable part was really annoying with The Da Vinci Code as once you solve a puzzle you have to wait, sometimes for quite a pages, while the characters wander lost trying to solve it.

I know that the average reader will pick Brown over Eco but I just think it's silly when people start believing what Brown's skimmed over in his 'research' and then worship is wrongly poured upon him.

Foucault's Pendulum is one of the best - if not the - conspiracy novel. It's template, that of the Sefirah is a fitting, yet contrasting, template. I love it.

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poiaModerator
The Modeleter


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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Honesty]
      #758 - 03/07/04 11:40 AM

Well, I wouldn't called it worship... Most of his readers are regular people who like "easy-read" books. So, when one goes to the market and on the shelf with the book of the month, next to the latest Robert Ludlum or Tom Clancy novel, there's this book... well, you bet this is controversial book.
I noticed you wrote somewhere he stinks in his research. I read a book a couple months ago and at the beginning it simply said: “ about half of this book is true. It’s up to the reader to figure out which half.” I’m afraid most of us forgot to use our sense of discernment, and if becoming interested in the subject to start our own research. What we get out of it, it’s up for discussion or not… Just like the “controversy” about “The Passion of Christ”, again we forget it is the artist’s vision, not ours, and it is not required to be accurate.
Tell me, how many people do you think actually read the whole Foucault’s Pendulum? His style is worse then Balzac’s, for Pete’s sake! But, Eco is European and if he is, he must know literature, unlike some American boy who’s going for glory. Fortunately, Dan Brown makes people think, and that’s great! And if you don’t believe me, look around you… People are trying to build a Cryptex!
Two writers, two different styles. Eco is greater then Brown, but even Eco’s message is: don’t get too involved in a game, there are to many lunatics that are taking it too seriously and the game becomes dangerous.

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MudpuppyAdministrator
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: poia]
      #765 - 03/07/04 05:17 PM

All excellent points, Poia The thing that thrills me about Dan Brown is that his books have enough mass-market appeal to encourage people to read, period. As an added bonus, many folks find the books so interesting that they feel inspired to keep reading, researching, and pursuing knowledge. It's not fair to compare Brown to Eco -- their works are vastly different in intent and style.

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Honesty
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: poia]
      #767 - 03/07/04 09:09 PM

Quote:

by poia
I wouldn't called it worship...




Looking at my screen right now I can see that there is a Cult of Dan Brown.

Other than that; I'll start being nice.

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SephiaModerator
Supreme Goddess


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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Honesty]
      #776 - 03/08/04 06:51 AM

"All worship....." Naah! :-)
Eco's writing style is a lot harder. The thing about Brown is that he goes into a complex, controversial topic, and manages to make ordinary Americans actually read it and in many cases, go further into it. it's almost like a beginners stepping stone onto a grail quest. ::hops up onto gallant steed and gallops off into the sunset, with armor shinning and etc....::

--------------------
"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind

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MudpuppyAdministrator
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Honesty]
      #784 - 03/08/04 02:08 PM

<< Looking at my screen right now I can see that there is a Cult of Dan Brown. >>

This is off-topic, but... the site is called "Cult of Dan Brown" as a joke. It was a joke made by an employee in a bookstore in Missouri, and a friend relayed it to us. We thought it sounded catchy, and as we were planning a discussion site anyway, we figured it was a good name. If we ever get the site finished we'll actually explain the whole story

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Arras
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Honesty]
      #1113 - 05/24/04 01:08 PM

Comparisons between The DaVinci Code and Foucault's Pendulum are inevitable, and it was in fact my fondness for Eco's masterpiece that drew me to Brown's. Both are packed with arcana and explore interesting historical connections and secret societies, and I frankly enjoyed both stories.

That said, I agree that The DaVinci Code is a far more accessible read, and that's doubtless why it's been so much more successful than Foucault's Pendulum. It could be argued that it was written with a screenplay in mind, much as Clancy's novels are--a lot of action and suspense that translates easily into visuals. Eco's work is more interior, filled with more historical musings and digressions that are best suited for philosophical discussions, and would bore a movie audience to tears.

Their respective takes on the subject matter is also in contrast. Where Eco takes a cynical look at conspiracy theories and secret societies, poking fun at the people who take such things too seriously, Brown remains reverent of the mysteries themselves and all but encourages his readers to pursue their own grail quests.

I agree that Foucault's Pendulum is a "richer" book, and that you get out of it what you're willing to put in as a reader. Eco drops names and historical references without always explaining them in detail, leaving it to the reader to enrich himself with a set of encyclopedias (or these days a Google search). Brown, on the other hand, makes sure to explain everything to the reader within a few pages of his own references. Consequently, you can enjoy The DaVinci Code on a desert island, since it's a fully self-contained story, whereas Foucault's Pendulum really requires access to outside sources in order to get the full benefit of it.

As a final note to those who would comment about Eco's writing style vs. Brown's, bear in mind that Umberto Eco writes his novels in his native Italian, and has them translated into other languages by others. The English version you've read is essentially a second-hand work, and may suffer somewhat for it.

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Dazzle
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Arras]
      #1125 - 05/25/04 10:00 AM

Quote:

Arras said:
Eco drops names and historical references without always explaining them in detail, leaving it to the reader to enrich himself with a set of encyclopedias (or these days a Google search). Brown, on the other hand, makes sure to explain everything to the reader within a few pages of his own references. Consequently, you can enjoy The DaVinci Code on a desert island, since it's a fully self-contained story, whereas Foucault's Pendulum really requires access to outside sources in order to get the full benefit of it.




To hell with the desert island. Brown is something to be read and thrown away. Eco offers us the chance to go away, discover, and return in order to read it again with an further understanding. Repeat value.

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SephiaModerator
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Dazzle]
      #1162 - 05/26/04 06:30 AM

I don't know about that.... I've read DVC twice, and may rereread it. I enjoy the story, and it's funny how "the Teacher"'s true ID is foreshadowed, but I couldn't get it the 1st time. WHile Eco's work is certainly richer, I am not sure I enjoyed the reading enough to reread it. I am glad I read it, definitely, but the thought of rereading it brings out my lazy side...

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Dazzle
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Sephia]
      #1168 - 05/26/04 10:59 AM

I read Eco's Baudolino recently and, although it is a great yarn, I wasn't too hot on the subject matter.

Today, while browsing borders I spotted two books the content of which were important formerly to the book and latterly to the title character: The Realm of Prester John and Hypatia of Alexandria.

Within a few pages of reading The Realm of Prester John I was suddenly aware of what I'd been missing from the first read and, given time, will return to read it again knowing that I'll understand more of what Eco is talking/arguing about.

It will be good to return to Foucault's Pendulum too but I'm probably going to be looking around for literature on the Compte de Saint-Germain in the next year. I've already ordered the Corpus Hermeticum through Amazon, and I'll eventually get around to my own attempts to translate all the other language too.

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poiaModerator
The Modeleter


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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Dazzle]
      #1181 - 05/26/04 02:13 PM

actually, I liked Foucault's Pendulum even better the 2nd time... I didn't rush like the first time, so I had the pleasure to savor it...

--------------------
"OK, so what's the speed of dark?"S.W.


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RoseyORyan
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Dazzle]
      #3877 - 05/21/05 11:30 PM

Hey You Guys!
All good posts. Sharp as Jack the Ripper's knives the lot of you. I look forward to further cut n' thrust on this site. Hey, do you think this 'internet thing' was one of LDV's lost ideas? Emm...
As Ever,
Rosey O'Ryan

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Dazzle
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: RoseyORyan]
      #3899 - 05/22/05 10:23 PM

Just the gay porn sites.

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AAnnAArchyAdministrator
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Dazzle]
      #3912 - 05/23/05 05:37 PM

Hey, he called it erotica.

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RoseyORyan
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: AAnnAArchy]
      #3945 - 05/25/05 07:47 PM

Hey Daz,
When will you be ready to publish the extraordinary adventures and thinking of the Comte. I saw him only the other day as a guide at Rosslyn! He gave me the Secret Sign...it had to be him! Or maybe his cousin, Count Dracula?
Rosey :-)

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Belbo
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Honesty]
      #4173 - 06/22/05 12:32 PM



Foucault's Pendulum is one of the best - if not the - conspiracy novel. It's template, that of the Sefirah is a fitting, yet contrasting, template. I love it.




I agree about this, maybe just becouse I love the historical threads. I like to discover that something I have read in fictional story aktually exist. Like Bacons New Atlantis or google around and finding that the Rosencreutz has actually some bizarr homepages and they are writing about Swedenborg and pointing at similarius between science and magic.
But what I also like is the fact that he says: Dont believe me, but watch out for the maniacs out there.
I´m reading it again, it´s easier to concentrate on the plott the second time as someone did write before.

Compered to DVC. It´s two kinds of book with two reason to read or write them. DVS is supposed to be read by a wider group of people, not everyone have the urge to speculate and search for more information, but if you want to you can do that to. You are not expected to any speciell knowledge either, but it´s fun to have.
Foucaults pendelum are expecting some knowledge before, and the most important: interest about history, philosophy, cults, science, religion.
It´s hard to introduce just anyone to it, if you think it´s a vaste of time to know anything about these things, you not are going to finish the beginning page of the book.
I think it´s worth patience, it´s one of my favorite books.
Luckily it´s finally comming in translating this autum, and I can buy it. Libraries is nice institutions, but they allways want the books back...

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Young
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Honesty]
      #4404 - 07/12/05 01:53 AM

Hello All,
this is my first post.
I read Foucault's Pendulum long before Dan Brown's DaVinci Code. I must admit I enjoyed both reads immensely, but Eco's novel is superior by far, imho.
What Eco does with established/accepted history is impeccable (Baudolino is another excellent novel by Eco where the reader is treated with, among many other plesantries, a 're-interpretation' and 'bricolage' of history.

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www.fairytales-london.com

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Dazzle
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Young]
      #4405 - 07/12/05 01:57 AM

Quote:

Young said:
Hello All,
this is my first post.
I read Foucault's Pendulum long before Dan Brown's DaVinci Code. I must admit I enjoyed both reads immensely, but Eco's novel is superior by far, imho.
What Eco does with established/accepted history is impeccable (Baudolino is another excellent novel by Eco where the reader is treated with, among many other plesantries, a 're-interpretation' and 'bricolage' of history.




What was it about The Da Vinci Code that you enjoyed?

Also, Baudolino is a great book - it's a pity that many don't appreciate that.

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Young
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Dazzle]
      #4406 - 07/12/05 02:04 AM

I always enjoy feeling that an author's been out and about intensely researching the subject matter of their novel. Also, I took Brown's novel for what (i think) it is - an entertaining book with a respectable amount of easily-digestible arcana for the newly-initiated. Its pacing and screenplay-like unfolding was thoroughly enjoyable.

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www.fairytales-london.com

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Dazzle
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Young]
      #4407 - 07/12/05 02:27 AM

Quote:

Young said:
I always enjoy feeling that an author's been out and about intensely researching the subject matter of their novel.




Maybe living in the countries involved soured my interest in it since I found so many things unbelievable - notably the actions and dialogue of the characters - or incorrect.

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Young
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Dazzle]
      #4408 - 07/12/05 02:32 AM

Quote:

Dazzle said:
Quote:

Young said:
I always enjoy feeling that an author's been out and about intensely researching the subject matter of their novel.




Maybe living in the countries involved soured my interest in it since I found so many things unbelievable - notably the actions and dialogue of the characters - or incorrect.




I live in Milan, Italy, been to France many times (never lived in the U.S.) - coming from an American author, this book wasn't as 'inaccurate' as many other American points of view I have come across... (I am not saying anything against the U.S. pls dont misunderstand!) I try and take DVC for what I think it is: a 'light' read with stimulus.
Anyway, I was referring to the research with regards to the Sang Real, more than the accuracy of the 'locals'

Edited by Young (07/12/05 02:35 AM)

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EVDebs
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Young]
      #5375 - 11/06/05 07:05 AM

Dazzle, Young

I bought a copy of Foucault's Pendulum, needing something to read and seeing that the book has a Chapter 88 Templarism is Jesuitism. This is research meat that I've been delving into with 'A Third Temple In Jerusalem Is Not Necessary' on the Solomon Key topics here in cultofdanbrown.

Scanning throught this however makes me believe that Eco has it ass-backwards. Templarism's secrets, to what I've seen, deal with the Ark of The Covenant's location -- and allogory to the Holy Grail-- and thus would be needed for the Jesuits to promote their version of 'end times' scenarios ('futurism' vs. the Protestant's 'historicism').

Jesuits brought us the origins of the Left Behind modern-day evangelical protestant eschatology, once the state of Israel came into existence in 1948 and the 'need' for a subsequent Third Temple emerged. Protestants seem to have dropped 'historicism' in favor of the Jesuit 'futurist' version of events to come in the last days.

see The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism
www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

I'll read Foucault's Pendulum, but I don't believe the Templars would have believed what the Knights of Malta (Hospitallers, fiercely loyal Catholics) would have believed.

The Templar's secret was linked to their eponymous name, which requires in its Holy of Holies an Ark, carrying tablets etched in God's handwriting the 10 Commandments.

But today, a Third Temple is not required. Knowing why is, hopefully, something that Eco can help me with in my postings to cultofdanbrown.

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EVDebs
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: EVDebs]
      #5377 - 11/07/05 02:01 AM

Well...first mistake I see is on page 4 where Eco states "...had it (the pendulum) hung instead from the dome of Solomon's Temple ?"

Solomon's Temple had no Dome. Arched ceilings in the tower structures but no "dome" as in a Dome of the Rock style architechure...

Eco pulls a fast one here.

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Dazzle
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: EVDebs]
      #5379 - 11/08/05 12:30 AM

I'd be more inclined to say that the translator, William Weaver, has made the error if, indeed, it is.

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EVDebs
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: Dazzle]
      #5452 - 11/22/05 01:44 AM

Dazzle, I now reach the part of the book where the main characters discuss the world's population composed of cretins, morons, imbiciles, and lunatics. The highest form of lunatic, and most incidious, is the Templar believer...page 58 paperback:

"The lunatic is all idee fixe, and whatever he comes across confirms his lunacy. You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars."

Oh my. I'm a lunatic ! Well, that's not so bad, considering the alternatives...

The other thing Eco says that I find interesting is why the Knights of Malta don't get mentioned much.

page 67 paperback "Why is there all this talk about the Templars and nothing about the Knights of Malta ?"

This is because they morph, as the KT did into Freemasons, the Hospitalers morph into the Knights of Malta--the modern organization of loyal Catholics.

The book starts out very, how to put it, Gabriel Maria Marquez -like. A difficult 50 or so pages to begin with but no worse for wear than the Rule of Four's first 80 or so more coherent pages. Kind of like One Hundred Years of Solitude IMHO.

Edited by EVDebs (11/22/05 02:02 AM)

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EVDebs
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: poia]
      #5496 - 11/29/05 10:05 AM

"Eco's doctoral thesis dealt with the early philosopher and religious thinker St. Thomas Aquinas. Eco, who had been a militant Catholic intellectual in the early 1950s, confessed later in an interview that he stopped believing in God after his studies. "You could say he miraculously cured me of my faith." (Time, June 13, 2005) From 1954 to 1959 Eco worked in Milan as a cultural editor for RAI, Italian Radio-Television, also lecturing at the University of Turin (1956-64). In 1958-59 Eco served in the army. He was a university teacher in Milan (1964-65) and Florence (1965-69). From 1969 to 1971 he was a teacher at Milan Polytechnic. At the early age of 39 Eco was appointed professor of semiotics at Bologna University in the north of Italy. He has also taught at Harvard and Yale."

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/ueco.htm

Such a shame that Eco gave up on God after his studies. A creative genius really needs inspiration, and viewing human nature will drain you if you concentrate too much on 'learned'-ness. God is the ultimate 'magical realist'. Come back, Umberto, come back !

Also, Dan Brown fans take note : semiotics, the study of signs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics

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EVDebs
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: EVDebs]
      #5574 - 12/08/05 11:32 AM

Fellow 'cult of Dan Brown'ers:

My take on Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum book, which is very funny re all things Templar, always changes the subject when the subject of the Jesuits comes up. A diabolical Casausbon meets up with named Aglie keeps changing the subject when the Jesuits come up...and knowing Eco's own background, this leads me to suspect that Eco is shielding the Jesuits, KnightsHospitallers/Knights of Malta/ SMOM...out of habit perhaps, as he says he has abandoned the faith...but this is weird, America : The National Catholic Weekly

http://www.americamagazine.org/BookReview.cfm?articletypeid=31&textID=4327&issueID=540

has his book reviewed prominently, yet here is a guy who has dropped the faith like a 'hot potato' so to speak, while they make his book available for purchase ? Very strange, indeed. The church just BBQ'ed DeMolay for supposedly dropping the faith.

Interesting don't you think ? Maybe being able to bash Freemasonry and Templars qualifies enough as a Catholic promotion vehicle. Read 'about America' and who sponsors them: The Jesuits, naturally.

http://www.americamagazine.org/aboutAmerica.cfm

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EVDebs
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: EVDebs]
      #5577 - 12/09/05 01:55 AM

Knights of Malta
Page 67: "Why is there all this talk about the Templars and nothing about the Knights of Malta ?"

Could it be that Jesuits are behind much of the Knights of Malta, Opus Dei, and who knows what else ?

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EVDebs
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Re: Foucault's Pendulum new [Re: EVDebs]
      #5600 - 12/11/05 10:43 AM

Roger Shattuck, died recently. Shattuck "became an opponent of postmodern trends in the study and teaching of literature, including deconstructionism and semiotics, which he contended stripped literature of its intellectual, moral and human environment. In particular, he lamented that the literary world increasingly failed to celebrate the works of classic writers"-- from NYTimes obit.

Eco is a professor of semiotics and the late Shattuck, a professor at Boston University, disrespected that line of research apparently. That would make for some boring writing, as you can imagine


""One of the great reductionist hermeneutical schemes, however, which is still influential--indeed in many quarters of the academy and elsewhere it enjoys the status of an unquestioned assumption--is the idea developed by one of Nietzsche's most acute students, Michel Foucault, who has followed up on his master's insistence that all cultural expressions, however represented, have to be reduced to a basic fundament, namely, the conflict of powers. The methodology employed by Foucault's latter-day disciples is startlingly simple: look for evidence of oppression. All other questions of style, content, beauty, and truth are not only irrelevant, but probably camouflage. The core issue is power; nothing else really exists. Frank Kermode writes witheringly of the "Foucauldian" school: "It is held to be axiomatic that all knowledge, being socially constructed, has no objective validity--though the knowledge on which this belief is founded is silently excluded from the censure. Professors who are willing to admit that they care very little for literature (it is now quite usual for some of them to do so) will seek in it the one thing that interests them, a political content of which the significance is predetermined, thus committing what Ellis calls "the fallacy of the single factor." They take away from the object of study only what they bring to it....

This said, the problems faced by literary study today as articulated above, are real ones, which I have not exaggerated. The pendulum has swung to an extreme position and the situation has been exacerbated, not ameliorated, by the "hermeneutics of suspicion." In the time remaining to me, I would like to suggest that Christian scholars of literature are in a unique position not only to observe the impasse, but to point to solutions that are distinctively Christian.""

from "The Hermeneutics of Innocence:
Literary Criticism from a Christian Perspective"
Carl P.E. Springer PhD
http://www.leaderu.com/aip/docs/springer.html

Foucalt's pendulum, indeed, has swung. But back to my conspiratorial mind...isn't Boston University where Shattuck taught a Catholic school ? Oh, darn, poor Shattuck wouldn't have wanted THAT information tied to Springer's article ! Egad !

Hermeneutics defined "the theory of interpretation and understanding of a text through empirical means"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical

The conflict between the Templars real secret vs. what the Jesuits wish to keep 'control' of...to my researched 'empirical' testing reveals to me to be the necessity for a Third Temple according to Jesuit-contrived eschatology done in the 1500's by Francisco Ribera, in order to protect the Papacy.

More on Michel Foucault

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault
who, attended a Jesuit school "the Jesuit College Saint-Stanislaus" for what it's worth...




Edited by EVDebs (12/11/05 10:57 AM)