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Iceal
stranger


Reged: 02/15/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Hjørring, Denmark
Improvised Munitions
      #7392 - 04/10/06 05:07 AM

Are the guns that the Delta-Force uses, called "IM-weapons" or "Improvised Munitions", real or is it just something mr. Brown made up? If they indeed are real, where can i read more about them?

-Iceal

--------------------
"On a hot summer night, will you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses?"

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AAnnAArchyAdministrator
Gifted Procrastinator


Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
Loc: Las Vegas
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: Iceal]
      #7393 - 04/10/06 05:43 AM

They're real & there are books about them. Search your local or internet bookstore.

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Iceal
stranger


Reged: 02/15/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Hjørring, Denmark
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: AAnnAArchy]
      #7394 - 04/10/06 06:57 AM

Can you give me some links? All i can find when i google "Improvised Munitions" is some book about how you can make weapons out of all kinds of stuff...

--------------------
"On a hot summer night, will you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses?"

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AAnnAArchyAdministrator
Gifted Procrastinator


Reged: 10/20/03
Posts: 643
Loc: Las Vegas
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: Iceal]
      #7401 - 04/10/06 12:47 PM

Wouldn't those weapons, by definition, be "improvised munitions"? You know, making "weapons out of all kinds of stuff"?

I'm no weapons expert, I just did a few searches.

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Iceal
stranger


Reged: 02/15/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Hjørring, Denmark
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: AAnnAArchy]
      #7410 - 04/11/06 10:08 AM

Yes, the weapons in the book i talked about is improvised munitions, but im talking about links about rifles that shoots ice-bullits made from snow, and glass-bullits made from molten sand.

-Iceal

--------------------
"On a hot summer night, will you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses?"

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SephiaModerator
Supreme Goddess


Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: Iceal]
      #7414 - 04/11/06 11:55 AM

all glass is made from melted sand.

--------------------
"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind

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Iceal
stranger


Reged: 02/15/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Hjørring, Denmark
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: Sephia]
      #7417 - 04/11/06 09:29 PM

hello? isn't that what I wrote?? okay maybe it's "and glass-bullits made from MELTED sand" but excuse me for my bad english, i am only 15 and I live in Denmark...

-Iceal

--------------------
"On a hot summer night, will you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses?"

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SephiaModerator
Supreme Goddess


Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: Iceal]
      #7418 - 04/11/06 11:45 PM

oh. I thought you meant it some kind of particular glass bullets. I mean, if they are glass, why say they are from sand? It's like saying a book made out of paper... (just about) all books are made of it, aren't they?

Actually, I'm a bit confused about the concept of glass bullets. For one thing, making them strong enough to withstand being fired is pretty challenging, and even then, the only advantage I can think of is that they won't set off metal detectors. Plastic would do that just as well...

--------------------
"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind

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Arras
enthusiast


Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: Sephia]
      #7419 - 04/12/06 06:31 AM

I think the point of "improvised munitions" is that the weapon itself forges the ammunition from raw materials. In other words, you'd pour sand into the weapon and it would fuse the sand into glass before firing by exposing the sand to high temperature and pressure in the chamber.

It's also likely that these weapons would not be "firearms" in the traditional sense--they'd be more like "slug-throwers" in that they would use something like compressed gas to fire the projectile, rather than gunpowder. They would have relatively low muzzle velocity (necessary to keep the projectile intact, unless producing shotgun-like shrapnel is the intent), short range and limited accuracy, and likely wouldn't be able to take advantage of barrel rifling to give the projectile any spin.

Evading metal detectors isn't the object, here (since the weapon itself may well be made of steel in order to be able to contain the heating/cooling and compression mechanisms needed to turn the raw material into usable ammunition). The aim is to produce a weapon that theoretically never runs out of ammo (as long as there's an abundant supply of the raw material), to avoid the age-old problem of having a rifle become useless as anything more than a club when the soldier runs out of ammo. If you can turn sand into glass, or snow into ice, or dirt into clay--and do it fast enough to be practical--then you can operate in the field for extended periods without need for resupply.

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Iceal
stranger


Reged: 02/15/06
Posts: 17
Loc: Hjørring, Denmark
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: Arras]
      #7439 - 04/14/06 11:40 PM

is it possible to find any pictures of that kind of weapons?

-Iceal

--------------------
"On a hot summer night, will you offer your throat to the wolf with the red roses?"

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Arras
enthusiast


Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: Iceal]
      #7441 - 04/15/06 08:36 AM

Quote:

Iceal said:
is it possible to find any pictures of that kind of weapons?





Not any real weapons of that sort, no, since they don't exist. Contrary to Brown's claim at the beginning of the book that "all technologies described in this book exist", his interpretation of "improvised munitions" has taken the concept a bit further than current science and technology allows. The same applies to most of the other technologies he describes in the book, including the "microbot" and "hologram gun". He basically did what any science-fiction author does--he looked at technologies that are currently at the drawing-board stage and extrapolated forward 10-15 years to imagine what these things might be like if/when they mature.

There are a number of practical problems with the improvised munitions weapons as Brown describes them:

(1) Forging the ammunition itself would require a source of energy, either to heat sand or cool snow into ice. A battery could power a heating/refrigerating unit, sure, but then the battery becomes the weak link in the supply chain and the weapon becomes useless when the battery dies, defeating the purpose of "infinite ammo". In the case of turning sand to glass, you'd need a heating element capable of reaching about 1500 degrees Celsius, which would require an impractically large power source (to say nothing of the insulation on the weapon's grips to protect the holder from nasty burns, and from melting other parts of the weapon). The other problem with in-weapon forging of ammunition is that it would be painfully slow--the time between shots would be on the order of minutes, not seconds, so for all intents and purposes it would be a one-shot weapon.

(2) Firing the newly-forged ammunition would in most cases destroy the projectile. In the case of an ice bullet, the heat of friction as the bullet traveled down the barrel would melt it (the Discovery Channel program Mythbusters debunked this one quite a while ago). Any part of the ice bullet that doesn't melt in the barrel would shatter upon impact, even against unprotected skin, because the sharpness of the point will have been dulled, and ice is quite fragile. Glass bullets are a bit more practical as ammunition, but the forging problem all but rules them out.

In the "real" world, "improvised munitions" refers to things like Molotov cocktails, recipes for making gunpowder out of commonly-available ingredients, using construction supplies like nails in creative ways, and so on. The U.S. Department of Defense TM 31-210 Improvised Munitions Handbook is a training manual for guerilla warfare, for instance, but it makes no references to any weapons that forge their own ammunition.

Simply put, Brown's concept of "improvised munitions" represents something that the militaries of the world would probably like to have--unlimited ammo in the field is a long-held dream of war-planners everywhere--but technological obstacles and scientific realities make them impractical at this point. Check back in 10-15 years, though!

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ash
journeyman


Reged: 11/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: Bombay India
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: Arras]
      #7489 - 04/20/06 07:12 PM

Even the simple navigation equipment described is quite futuristic.Dan seems to have penchant for declaring in the beginning of the book everytime that all state is fact.
In case of DVC it was religious so caused such a furore

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8549176320abc
enthusiast


Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 219
Loc: UK
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: ash]
      #7549 - 04/23/06 05:46 AM

Anyone who would use Dan Brown's novels as a reference book needs to be hit.

--------------------
Governments offer us safety for our freedom. It is by seeing this safety as false that we are freed.

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SephiaModerator
Supreme Goddess


Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: 8549176320abc]
      #7557 - 04/23/06 08:46 AM

oh, I wouldn't go quite that far. Brown's books, while certainly not a reliable reference, are a good starting point. Isn't that how most of us started? We read Brown's books, saw his claim that the stuff was real, and did further research...

--------------------
"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind

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8549176320abc
enthusiast


Reged: 05/02/05
Posts: 219
Loc: UK
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: Sephia]
      #7577 - 04/25/06 07:15 AM

Yes I supose.

--------------------
Governments offer us safety for our freedom. It is by seeing this safety as false that we are freed.

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CMWarren
newbie


Reged: 05/25/06
Posts: 35
Re: Improvised Munitions new [Re: Sephia]
      #8054 - 06/10/06 08:14 PM

Quote:

Sephia said:
all glass is made from melted sand.




I cringed big time when I read about the glass bullets, because its not feasable for many reasons.

I am a glass artist, so I deal with hot glass all the time, and even so, at the tempatures for basic kiln working being in the range of 1450-1750 F, I do not see how they could make a gun that would be able to power high enough to get to those tempatures. and thats not even high enought to melt sand.

to melt sand, you are talking about in the range of 3500degrees F and up, depending on the sand itself. and ususally, to melt at that tempature, you have to add other things, such as soda lime, which is a refractory chemeical that will retain the heat to help the sand melt faster.

the idea of putting this into a gun uint, and have it melt sand, then cool it fast enough to fire is ludicrise, because glass itself is a very touchy substance. even in small sizes like the size of a marble, you have to cool it down slowly, other wise, if you shot it out the end of the gun within minutes of it being forged, the glass would cool so fast after leaving the gun that it would fracture, and explode nearly immediatly, due to the huge stress caused by the quick cooling.

glass is a tricky meduim becuase you have to cool it very slowly, so that the inside of the glass and the outside cools as close to the same rate as possible. this is a slow prosses. even when I am doing meybe 2-3 layers less then a centameter in total, it takes hours. if you dont, the glass will have a huge ammount of stress inside, and then would crack and completely to relive the stress.

glass is not feasable, unless the gun produces and stores the bullets days before they are needed. even so, plan sand is unstable, which is why most all glass itself has other addatives to make it stronger, and to make it easier to melt.

I can see snow guns, that makes sense, as those water guns, as they often use powerful jets of waters to cut materials instead of saws which an break and warp.

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