Honesty
newbie
Reged: 03/05/04
Posts: 39
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The Voynich Manuscipt
What do you think? A genuine code that's still uncracked or a hoax?
-------------------- I'm Idaho.
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Packer_Fan
stranger
Reged: 04/12/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Virginia, USA
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How did you find it?
-------------------- Wild man in a wild world.
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poia
The Modeleter
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 168
Loc: NJ
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go to any site that deals with history's mysteries and this will be there... it's a fairly popular subject, but... hoax or not?
-------------------- "OK, so what's the speed of dark?"S.W.
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Packer_Fan
stranger
Reged: 04/12/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Virginia, USA
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I don't think it's a hoax, no. But my logic is weak and may even be considered naive. Why would anyone take the time to do this? Because they could? I do think it might just be the ramblings of someone goofing off, doodling, jotting random stuff down, loosely based on other stuff they saw, but to me a hoax has malice intent. This doesn't seem to.
But that's just my opinion.
-------------------- Wild man in a wild world.
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poia
The Modeleter
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 168
Loc: NJ
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I tend to agree with you... Although it looks like a great code, obviously impossible to crack, it might be someone’s private play... Someone who had the luxury to spend so much time in his own private world creating this manuscript, filled with his thoughts and ideas in his private language... Sort of like "Myst"...:) But I do wish it is a great book, once “cracked” to reveal wonderful stories, or “secrets”… conspiracies… a la Da Vinci stuff… :-)
-------------------- "OK, so what's the speed of dark?"S.W.
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WKShadow
Beloved Angel
Reged: 06/02/04
Posts: 79
Loc: Myrtle Beach, SC
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Well, that is fascinating, but what's more is that it is still undecifered. Hmm.
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Arras
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Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
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Something to bear in mind with any "undeciphered" document is that you're assuming the document contains meaningful information in some language or other, and that it has merely been made to look like gibberish because a cipher key was applied to it.
That's an important--and risky--assumption. Consider that there may never have been any meaningful information in any language, and that no encryption of any kind ever took place. I could construct a string of garbage, like:
KSCYUJFNESCXTHNNWSSJJJSEW
I could tell you that this is actually a meaningful text string that I happen to have encrypted with some mysterious algorithm, and you could waste years of your life trying to extract some meaning out of what was, after all, just a series of random keystrokes.
Why would someone go to such lengths to produce a hoax like that? Fame/notoriety and money, most likely. Consider the publicity that arises from claiming to have an "undecipherable" manuscript. Every cryptologist on the planet suddenly wants a crack at it, and the more you hint at the importance of the subject matter, the more incentive people have to spend time on the problem.
Also remember that the late Middle Ages and the Renaissance were periods of great intellectual vanity. Musicians, artists and mathematicians were all eager to impress one another with their cleverness, and all sorts of puzzles and brain-teasers emerged during that period. I can easily imagine some clever half-wit having a good joke at the expense of his peers by writing up a nonsensical manuscript and claiming that it contained something encrypted. His peers would wrack their brains trying to figure it out, to demonstrate their intellectual superiority, while he secretly snickered and got to gloat about being smarter than they were. Not hard to imagine at all
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Dazzle
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ghY hjsneeB ajkeI jdkswW jkjkxxO dklsX ddrueY aY ahjdK asklwI hdjsT fue'fhjH dhjwN msn'L shjwX, sjkwU dhsjwaC dnmwhaA dhjeP fdjkwF aswerI dbnckwJ s'V K. djkwU hsdhjQ xbsdZ djkwuY vbh'wR sjke! bnG dhG hdjsN.
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Dazzle
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Reged: 04/02/04
Posts: 484
Loc: UK
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Quote:
Dazzle said: ghY hjsneeB ajkeI jdkswW jkjkxxO dklsX ddrueY aY ahjdK asklwI hdjsT fue'fhjH dhjwN msn'L shjwX, sjkwU dhsjwaC dnmwhaA dhjeP fdjkwF aswerI dbnckwJ s'V K. djkwU hsdhjQ xbsdZ djkwuY vbh'wR sjke! bnG dhG hdjsN.
I've already received two PMs since I posted this from people asking me to translate my spiel from above. I'm not going to translate it; you've just got to work out the code.

ghdtR gh'B
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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first of all, is there a meaning or it gibberish? If there is, I think some kind of a clue is in order.
-------------------- "Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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Arras
enthusiast
Reged: 05/24/04
Posts: 263
Loc: B.C., Canada
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Ah, but that's precisely the issue, isn't it? What Dazzle provided was an illustration of the point I'd made about uncertainty. How do you know you're looking at something meaningful, versus gibberish?
Here you have the luxury of a living author to ask, and if he's willing to tell you one way or the other--and you trust him--you might get the resolution you're after in a reasonably short time. But if he were to keel over dead before answering you, how would you know whether his "code" was genuine?
Statistical analysis (e.g. using Zipf's laws) might be used to identify word patterns found in Western languages, and provide some encouragement that you're looking at something with sentence structure, but that makes some dangerous assumptions about the source material--and the encryption method used. Zipf's laws are useful only with codes and transliteration ciphers (which are effectively codes), not ciphers in general. Any cipher that obscures word boundaries would render Zipf's laws useless for this purpose. Just changing the plaintext from "Hello there" to "Hellothere" is enough. Modern (computer-based) encryption techniques muddle things up even further, defying statistical analysis.
So what you're left with is a puzzle with no hints, and no one able to provide any when you get stuck. Solving such a puzzle would likely take you many years, if not a lifetime. So ask yourself:
(1) What would motivate me to devote so much time to trying to solve this puzzle?
(2) What indications do I have that the author is serious and not just playing me for a fool?
There has to be a very compelling reason for people to bother trying to figure out such a puzzle, beyond simple intellectual curiosity. If it's going to take years out of someone's life, the author had better be promising something really valuable or important at the end.
Then there's the credibility issue. What do you know about the author? Is he known to be a witty fellow who plays practical jokes on his friends, or is he sober, serious type who does his work with meticulous professionalism? Given his background and other available evidence, does it seem credible that he could even possess the information he's promising, or the ability to encrypt it effectively?
Another famous example from the world of mathematics is Fermat's "Last Theorem", which states that x^n + y^n = z^n has no non-zero integer solutions for x, y and z when n > 2. In the margins of his notebook, Fermat wrote, "I have discovered a truly remarkable proof which this margin is too small to contain." The bugger then proceeded to die without ever writing down his remarkable proof. Since then (1630), many mathematicians have devoted their entire lives and careers to trying to prove Fermat's Last Theorem, and while some have gotten "close", no one yet has a complete proof.
Was Fermat being a smartass, or did he genuinely have a proof in mind? Was his proof even well thought-out, or were his journal musings just the product of an early inspiration that he never got to verify on paper? In this case, mathematicians have staked their careers on Fermat's reputation and previous work, all of which certainly suggested that he could have produced such a proof (if indeed the theorem is valid), and that it probably wasn't a hoax. There would be a lot fewer people working on the problem, though, if it weren't for the large cash prizes awaiting the first complete proof
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Dazzle
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Loc: UK
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Quote:
Sephia said: is there a meaning or it gibberish?
It's an excerpt from an manuscript I found in the garden whilst digging myself a rockery.
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Sephia
Supreme Goddess
Reged: 11/28/03
Posts: 876
Loc: MA, USA
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oh, sure.
w.jcy.x , e.mgb btqb
The clue to the above:
__________ STAND
-------------------- "Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind
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Dazzle
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Loc: UK
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hjyuyH fjkruP fdfhjT fhjdhjeC fghu'oP fhdjh! fdhjT, chjdB fhjryK fhdjfK fhdjh? fhjeY hj'eH hjeH fjkeiP
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poia
The Modeleter
Reged: 01/25/04
Posts: 168
Loc: NJ
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My thanks to Stewart for posting this: http://www.talk-history.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219
-------------------- "OK, so what's the speed of dark?"S.W.
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danaholic
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Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 163
Loc: Kent, England
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Dszg Gsv?
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langdon_lover
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Loc: England UK
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r ztivv wzmzslorx
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danaholic
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Bvh Mrxloz, ziv dv gsv lmob kvlkov gszg fmwvihgzmw vzxslgsvi?
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langdon_lover
journeyman
Reged: 10/11/04
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Loc: England UK
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dv nzbyv. r zn tvggrmt jfrgv tllw zg vmxibgrmt hgfuu yfg olmtvi dliwh ziv sziwvi. r zohl hkvoo hgfuu dilmt
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danaholic
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Rmwvvw
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Dazzle
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Oh dear! What have I started?
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8549176320abc
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fachys.ykal.ar.ataiin.shol.shory.cthres.ykor.sholdy sory.cthar.or.y.kair.chtaiin.shar.are.cthar.cthar.dan syaiir.sheky.or.ykaiin.shod.cthoary.cthes.daraiin.sa o'oiin.okeey.oteor.roloty.cth*ar.daiin.otaiin.or.okan sair.y.chear.cthaiin.cphar.cfhaiin - ydaraishy
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rheyn
stranger
Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 23
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This is a real cipher, some "hints": 1) Double Substitution cipher, with a third layer of non-encrypted letters 2) The 3 letter "boxes" are in specific order 3) The number 3 is crucial in breaking this code -----------------------------------------------------------
MNS CKA NZT WYH ADK JAE
NPO WDT CNR FKE ANB XXE
BDM JAE CJN REG NTA NES
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RoseyORyan
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Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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Hi folks, All good stuff! So what are we to make of this history of encryption? Take the Pyramid Texts, the Phaistos Disc, Revelation, the Pictish Code, Da Vinci, the Voynich Manuscript,Shakespeare's Tomb Code, the Shrugsborough Code, are they telling us the same thing...NOTHING! What is NOTHING? The key to an anti-dialectic which unravels SOMETHING? Confused? Rosey :-)
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