I_know_the_truth
stranger
Reged: 07/08/05
Posts: 16
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The problem is that by default such things are secret, making facts difficult to verify or non-facts difficult to disprove.
Therefore discussion is meaningless unless it is done under the assumption of postulating the core "secret" or "reason" for the theory.
The conjecture and infilling to which people resort to in order to "prove" their point makes many conspiracy websites and theories complete gibberish and very difficult to discuss in a meaningful manner. I repeat myself.
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Shadowglass
stranger
Reged: 07/08/05
Posts: 48
Loc: Canada
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A conspiracy minded person will always confront your argument with the answer "you just don't get it".
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DHN
stranger
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 20
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The ambigrams featured in 'Angels and Demons' were described as a mystery in connection with the 'Illuminati'. Although this is fictional, there is indeed a mystery surrounding ambigrams, so Dan Brown was perhaps right to use them in this way in the novel.
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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Didn't you get the memo ? It's ALWAYS a 'lone gunman', silly.
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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Hi Folks,
I ask the question: What is a conspiracy? Most of the conspiracies I have personally participated in have been multifarious in form. One can relate to them in a number of ways.
(1)The "conspiracy of silence" is a fairly commonplace conspiracy being an essential element in all societies at all historical periods. It is a kind of Weapon of Mass Destruction that can self-implode among the original conspirators.
(2)Then there is a type of conspiracy that involves the State. This is a common conspiracy that is what I term an "Open-Conspiracy". Here, the State via its media, civil servants, et al., denies the existence of Secret Services and the mass surveillance of its citizens.
(3) Then there is the "Internal-Conspiracy". Herein, things get very Alice in Wonderlandish. Secret Committees of Investigation are set into action to discover the truth why conspiracy type (2) is betrayed to a second party of the same type (2). Classic instance being, the FLUENCY Committee investigating the betrayal of top secrets to the Military Intellegence agency of the Soviet Union by the Director of British Military Intelligence 5 (MI5). Then to compound this type of conspiracy, we have the CIA conspiring to discover what the British conspirators know or do not know regarding the the singular conspiracy of the spy code-named "ELLI".
Anyway, the western agencies of Global Conspiracy (CIA, FBI,MI5,MI6,) never discovered the identity of the spy named "ELLI".
Now here is the kicker. "ELLI" was considered so important by Stalin that all his communications were for Stalin's eyes only. At the end of the Cold War the Russians revealed to western intelligence that they never knew the true identity of "ELLI",themselves! I contend that one man had the fate of the world in his hands for at least a decade...incidentally, "ELLI" in Hebrew means THE BELOVED OF GOD. "Now here is wisdom..."
Rosey 
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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Nota bene,
And...was it ever thus? The attempt to extend the "conspiracy of silence" (type 1) by and on behalf of the British Govt. went so far as to try to blackmail the Australian judiciary to halt publication of the revelations of a senior ex-member of MI5 [Peter Wright] regarding the "conspiracy of silence" (type 1), which the Attorney General acting on the orders of M. Thatcher's Govt. 'advisors' insisted such revelations would "endanger the interests of the United Kingdom". Well not quite...rather the incompetence of certain Govt. Ministers and senior members of the British Secret Services!
[See, 'Spy-catcher', Peter Wright. Not a good spy-catcher but from his confessions a bloody good burglar and bugger!]
Which nicely leads us to the death of Diana Spencer, ex-Princess of Wales, and the involvement of a senior member of British royalty, an ex-Washington ambassador, and senior members of the British Secret Service, MI6, and the American CIA and NSA.
Does anyone out there care to take the floor and discuss?
As ever,
Rosey 
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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RoseyORyan
The ELLI you mention..."they" probably do know the identity
see Venona Progeny at
http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2000/summer/re2-Su0.htm
And a Leo Long is ID'd in this weblink
"""John Cairncross [codenamed Carelian], who joined the Government Code and Cipher School ... in 1943[,] is acknowledged to have given the KGB large amounts of the Ultra material. The only other KGB agent known to have passed on information from Bletchley Park was Leo Long [codenamed Elli], who worked in MI14, the intelligence department that covered Germany. But decrypts of communications between Moscow Centre and the Soviet embassy in London ... show that a third agent, codenamed Baron, was passing on Bletchley Park's intercepts to the Russians....
"The identity of the third agent at Bletchley Park remains unknown." "
http://clark.cam.muskingum.edu/uk_folder/ukspycases_folder/ukspycasesother.html
...All this found in two google searches. BTW, the Baron codename, do you really think they DON'T know the ID ? Back to the Puzzle Palace, Rosey !
Edited by EVDebs (01/16/06 05:12 AM)
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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Hi EV,
You are quick on the draw, dude! Hmm...I see only a recycling of the basic source material.There is nothing new in these links.
What appears to have pissed the Americans was "ELLI" had access to "DRUID", the MOST SECRET material between the UK and the USA. Ordinary mortals cannot access this (including cipher clerks)...only the gods!
Rosey 
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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But then again, you may be reading a missal from the Departments of MIS-information & DIS-information...I'm MIS & DIS is me!
Rosey
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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Rosey
Thanks for the compliment. I've been following this stuff since reading the excellent James Bamford books Puzzle Palace and Body of Secrets (nonfiction). The link to our DanBrown interest is similar for Dan it seems also,
""...in the spring of 1995 the secret service arrived at the school. In an interview published three years later, Brown said the agents "detained one of our students, claiming he was a threat to national security. As it turned out, the kid had been on the internet the night before ... and had made the comment that he was so mad at the current political situation he was ready to kill President Clinton."
Brown's interest was aroused and he started to research the National Security Agency, the US eavesdropping equivalent to GCHQ. The result was his first novel, Digital Fortress, steeped in technobabble and conspiracy and laced with a warning about the erosion of privacy. But for Brown, at least before he was famous, the loss of privacy was not altogether a bad thing if it meant a safer country. "We now have weapons of mass destruction," he said in 1998, "so maybe there is this argument that each one of us needs to be watched by somebody." "
From : The Guardian profile: Dan Brown
The author of The Da Vinci Code, the world's biggest selling hardback novel, has a taste for religious controversy, conspiracy theories and Jeffrey Archer. His next book is set in Washington and tackles the Freemasons
Dan Glaister in Los Angeles
Friday August 6, 2004
The Guardian
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/generalfiction/story/0,6000,1277339,00.html
I don't know if it's necessary to go THAT far but our current NSA/GCHQ watchers are doing such a bangup job that it's gotten to the point where the head of Sun Microsystems, Scott McNeely now says 'you have no privacy, get over it.'
Again, maybe with the RFIDs, electronic surveillances, signals intel, etc., etc., things possibly have progressed to a point beyond which the common law your country has given us and based on the restrictions of the King at Runnymeade and the Magna Carta, can handle.
This would be a tragedy and the end of democratic society. If they have gone too far, is there anyone inside these agencies that could pull them back from the edge ?
Edited by EVDebs (01/16/06 02:27 PM)
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