I_know_the_truth
stranger
Reged: 07/08/05
Posts: 16
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The problem is that by default such things are secret, making facts difficult to verify or non-facts difficult to disprove.
Therefore discussion is meaningless unless it is done under the assumption of postulating the core "secret" or "reason" for the theory.
The conjecture and infilling to which people resort to in order to "prove" their point makes many conspiracy websites and theories complete gibberish and very difficult to discuss in a meaningful manner. I repeat myself.
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Shadowglass
stranger
Reged: 07/08/05
Posts: 48
Loc: Canada
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A conspiracy minded person will always confront your argument with the answer "you just don't get it".
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DHN
stranger
Reged: 01/04/06
Posts: 20
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The ambigrams featured in 'Angels and Demons' were described as a mystery in connection with the 'Illuminati'. Although this is fictional, there is indeed a mystery surrounding ambigrams, so Dan Brown was perhaps right to use them in this way in the novel.
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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Didn't you get the memo ? It's ALWAYS a 'lone gunman', silly.
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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Hi Folks,
I ask the question: What is a conspiracy? Most of the conspiracies I have personally participated in have been multifarious in form. One can relate to them in a number of ways.
(1)The "conspiracy of silence" is a fairly commonplace conspiracy being an essential element in all societies at all historical periods. It is a kind of Weapon of Mass Destruction that can self-implode among the original conspirators.
(2)Then there is a type of conspiracy that involves the State. This is a common conspiracy that is what I term an "Open-Conspiracy". Here, the State via its media, civil servants, et al., denies the existence of Secret Services and the mass surveillance of its citizens.
(3) Then there is the "Internal-Conspiracy". Herein, things get very Alice in Wonderlandish. Secret Committees of Investigation are set into action to discover the truth why conspiracy type (2) is betrayed to a second party of the same type (2). Classic instance being, the FLUENCY Committee investigating the betrayal of top secrets to the Military Intellegence agency of the Soviet Union by the Director of British Military Intelligence 5 (MI5). Then to compound this type of conspiracy, we have the CIA conspiring to discover what the British conspirators know or do not know regarding the the singular conspiracy of the spy code-named "ELLI".
Anyway, the western agencies of Global Conspiracy (CIA, FBI,MI5,MI6,) never discovered the identity of the spy named "ELLI".
Now here is the kicker. "ELLI" was considered so important by Stalin that all his communications were for Stalin's eyes only. At the end of the Cold War the Russians revealed to western intelligence that they never knew the true identity of "ELLI",themselves! I contend that one man had the fate of the world in his hands for at least a decade...incidentally, "ELLI" in Hebrew means THE BELOVED OF GOD. "Now here is wisdom..."
Rosey 
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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Nota bene,
And...was it ever thus? The attempt to extend the "conspiracy of silence" (type 1) by and on behalf of the British Govt. went so far as to try to blackmail the Australian judiciary to halt publication of the revelations of a senior ex-member of MI5 [Peter Wright] regarding the "conspiracy of silence" (type 1), which the Attorney General acting on the orders of M. Thatcher's Govt. 'advisors' insisted such revelations would "endanger the interests of the United Kingdom". Well not quite...rather the incompetence of certain Govt. Ministers and senior members of the British Secret Services!
[See, 'Spy-catcher', Peter Wright. Not a good spy-catcher but from his confessions a bloody good burglar and bugger!]
Which nicely leads us to the death of Diana Spencer, ex-Princess of Wales, and the involvement of a senior member of British royalty, an ex-Washington ambassador, and senior members of the British Secret Service, MI6, and the American CIA and NSA.
Does anyone out there care to take the floor and discuss?
As ever,
Rosey 
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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RoseyORyan
The ELLI you mention..."they" probably do know the identity
see Venona Progeny at
http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2000/summer/re2-Su0.htm
And a Leo Long is ID'd in this weblink
"""John Cairncross [codenamed Carelian], who joined the Government Code and Cipher School ... in 1943[,] is acknowledged to have given the KGB large amounts of the Ultra material. The only other KGB agent known to have passed on information from Bletchley Park was Leo Long [codenamed Elli], who worked in MI14, the intelligence department that covered Germany. But decrypts of communications between Moscow Centre and the Soviet embassy in London ... show that a third agent, codenamed Baron, was passing on Bletchley Park's intercepts to the Russians....
"The identity of the third agent at Bletchley Park remains unknown." "
http://clark.cam.muskingum.edu/uk_folder/ukspycases_folder/ukspycasesother.html
...All this found in two google searches. BTW, the Baron codename, do you really think they DON'T know the ID ? Back to the Puzzle Palace, Rosey !
Edited by EVDebs (01/16/06 05:12 AM)
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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Hi EV,
You are quick on the draw, dude! Hmm...I see only a recycling of the basic source material.There is nothing new in these links.
What appears to have pissed the Americans was "ELLI" had access to "DRUID", the MOST SECRET material between the UK and the USA. Ordinary mortals cannot access this (including cipher clerks)...only the gods!
Rosey 
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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But then again, you may be reading a missal from the Departments of MIS-information & DIS-information...I'm MIS & DIS is me!
Rosey
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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Rosey
Thanks for the compliment. I've been following this stuff since reading the excellent James Bamford books Puzzle Palace and Body of Secrets (nonfiction). The link to our DanBrown interest is similar for Dan it seems also,
""...in the spring of 1995 the secret service arrived at the school. In an interview published three years later, Brown said the agents "detained one of our students, claiming he was a threat to national security. As it turned out, the kid had been on the internet the night before ... and had made the comment that he was so mad at the current political situation he was ready to kill President Clinton."
Brown's interest was aroused and he started to research the National Security Agency, the US eavesdropping equivalent to GCHQ. The result was his first novel, Digital Fortress, steeped in technobabble and conspiracy and laced with a warning about the erosion of privacy. But for Brown, at least before he was famous, the loss of privacy was not altogether a bad thing if it meant a safer country. "We now have weapons of mass destruction," he said in 1998, "so maybe there is this argument that each one of us needs to be watched by somebody." "
From : The Guardian profile: Dan Brown
The author of The Da Vinci Code, the world's biggest selling hardback novel, has a taste for religious controversy, conspiracy theories and Jeffrey Archer. His next book is set in Washington and tackles the Freemasons
Dan Glaister in Los Angeles
Friday August 6, 2004
The Guardian
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/generalfiction/story/0,6000,1277339,00.html
I don't know if it's necessary to go THAT far but our current NSA/GCHQ watchers are doing such a bangup job that it's gotten to the point where the head of Sun Microsystems, Scott McNeely now says 'you have no privacy, get over it.'
Again, maybe with the RFIDs, electronic surveillances, signals intel, etc., etc., things possibly have progressed to a point beyond which the common law your country has given us and based on the restrictions of the King at Runnymeade and the Magna Carta, can handle.
This would be a tragedy and the end of democratic society. If they have gone too far, is there anyone inside these agencies that could pull them back from the edge ?
Edited by EVDebs (01/16/06 02:27 PM)
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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Hi EV,
In short, the walls and THIS THING have ears! Ask Arras!
Rosey 
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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Hi EV,
I see Google is the latest Search Engine to be threatened by the NSA/GCHQ unless it complies with their demand to have a 'backdoor' access to their data base.
Microsoft and others signed up with these agencies some time ago. A real "Solomon's Key", eh! What does it begeteth a man if he can read the whole world and his soul has become blind?
Interestingly, the on-going police investigation into the death of Diana Spencer has forced the NSA to disclose that they had been intercepting and monitoring her telephone conversations for some years prior to her death. The British police cannot access this thousand-page document, currently the subject of an investigation in the US. However, they also had access to her computor, the Forums she accessed, and her screen-names [gulp!]. Her is an interesting tiny snippet:
The Sunday Times, Dec. 1999.
"How did those intimate royal conversations come to be floating on the airwaves where any ham could pick them up? Its one of the most fascinating unsolved connundrums of the decade, a mystery, as we were saying the other week, without clues, suspects or motives. It may just be, we reflected that someone is trying to tell us something in code! That could explain the curious quatrain that arrived in my mail last week:
'Encrypt herein a clue
Via earwigs at GCHQ.
Place Santa's name up right
In grandpapes soma bright'.
Just a leg-pull? Very likely. Still we used to heve the best codebreakers in the world. We probably still do, though most now solve crossword puzzles. So lets crack this one just in case."
[Godfrey Smith's Column]
There is your answer EV. It appears that somebody inside one of these agencies has informed us of 'a truth'... but are we ready to listen?
Rosey
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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Rosey
Read James Bamford's Puzzle Palace or Body of Secrets, books about the NSA and you discover that the English speaking US/UK treaty countries have a loophole that seems to allow for sharing of intelligence despite if any single country's laws disallow for it as a privacy right issue/domestic spying illegally etc.; simply have a neighbor country do it and put the info 'over the transom' so to speak.
This appears to be the case, sadly, with Diana as you relate it to me.
Edited by EVDebs (01/25/06 07:47 AM)
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RoseyORyan
member
Reged: 04/03/05
Posts: 128
Loc: Scotland
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Hi EV,
Yup, you may be right about the 'Puzzle Palace', a la KGB- type-apparatus!However, in the intervening years the EU Commission has instituted wide-ranging investigations regarding "ESCHELON" and the secret arrangements between the UK/USA to spy on its allies...politically,and economically. One rationale for breaking the US Military Intelligence embargo on Europe accessing precision information, re, Sat-Nav (so to speak)allowing the European Union that ONE metre edge on the US...which the Chinese are interested in buying into! The European Union knows about treachery, but it took some time to sink in. And so we return to the peculiar circumstances of Diana Spencer's untimely/timely death. America has blood on its hands and it people are waking up to that special ruthlessness by its 'hidden' leadership. (Perhaps our friend KT Mason would like to discuss this. But I doubt it.)
FREEDOM is the watch-word of this worldwide web, my friend. Look to those who seek to corrupt it for their own ideological and 'evil' reasons...there will be NO DEBATE WITH THE PEOPLE. Democrazy, shamocarzy!
Rosey
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EVDebs
enthusiast
Reged: 07/10/05
Posts: 272
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Rosey
I'm probably in trouble enough by writing what I've written so far but as for Freemasonry, Micah 4:3-5, with every man walking with 'his god' (as I've mentioned in another posting re Henry Wallace), the USofA still has people striving for the old values of truth and justice and tolerance under the rule of law.
Democracy is STILL worth fighting for, especially when you realize how easily it can be taken from you. The Huston Plan under Nixon...the Rex 84 Plan under Reagan...and now whatever they will call the 'suspension of the Constitution' under Bush (in order to lock up and detain dissenters during wartime...but wait, only Congress can declare war).
Everything unconstitutional will be declared 'constitutional', but only those who have read between the lines will be able to fight back. If this sounds cryptic, well mon frere, the Constitution has ways of defending itself.
The Declaration of Independence contains the phrase 'a decent respect for the opinions of mankind'. That obvious regard for what others see in our behavior ultimately results in the 'blowback' reactions that are becoming ever more frequent in US history.
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andymonk
stranger
Reged: 06/02/07
Posts: 22
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Alan Watt. http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/
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goliah
stranger
Reged: 05/23/06
Posts: 2
Loc: London, England
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When Dan Brown intentionally or otherwise decided to question the origins of the Roman Catholic Church and Christianity in general, he may have unintentionally opened a crack that may even now be breaking ever wider, almost at earthquake proportions. Here is the theory. Suppose that whatever it was that happened two thousand years ago failed and in its place was created the theological counterfeit that we call Christianity. His son having been disgraced on the Cross, that ultimate reality we call God stood back and allowed humanity to go its own way, knowing that two thousand years on, give or take a few years, mankind would find itself between the proverbial rock and a hard spot, with no way out within the existing intellecutal, moral, religious paradigm that we call 'civilization'.
Today with more and more people looking for answers that no political system on earth can provide, God once again sends a son to offer a way out, and to get the world's attention, reveals the first apodictic proof in human history for faith, exposing 'religious' tradition as the greatest of all human self deceptions. A corruption of aspiration and intellectual vanity without limit. And that is the beginning of what we call Judgement.
Sound far fetched. Google something called The Final Freedoms or check my web site. I'm a newbie and not allowed to post links. It may in fact be already happening?
--------------------
Theology only exists because nothing has been revealed.
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AEMoch
stranger
Reged: 06/16/08
Posts: 12
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I have to agree very much with that ststement. It is like what is one man's garbage is another man's treasure. Looking past the superfical dis-information and deeper toward the true theories and facts can be a challenge of a lifetime.
If you are those luck few that can see the truth or at least handle it... can wash you clean of the myths and lies that have been piling like a "Tower of S**T". Able to see the Emperor's clothes for what they really are, is some trip?
Comspiracy theory does has it's place in life to get out the truth of a message for "those in the know", and keep "the village idiots" away in their self half-brain'd notions of importance.
Yes... ain't it great to look outside of the box, and smell the flowers (even if they turn out to be plasic-sented)
Enjoy;
Al
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