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Dan Brown's Novels >> Angels and Demons

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JoseConseco
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Reged: 08/23/04
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Thoughts
      #2447 - 11/23/04 01:54 AM

Overall, I think there were just too many errors in this book to accept. It seems like there was no editing at all, except grammar and spell check. I suppose they were just eager to rush this to press after seeing the financial success of the DaVinci Code and got greedy. The DaVinci code had a lot of factual errors, but we could accept them as plot devices. Also, while reading the DaVinci code, you could play along with many of the riddles and make a game out of it. Here, you are totally detached from the adventure, and just watching. Although it was mildly entertaining, I felt this book was lacking in many respects.
The characters are far too comic-booky and one-dimensional, even throwing in some over-the-top flashbacks to explain the source of their "super-powers." The camerlengo was just too much. As far as implausibility, well, as a long time sci-fi and fasntasy fan, there are certain things I am willing to accept for entertainment. In this book it would be:

A bookish art-history professor (AKA "symbologist") can survive a duel with a multi-generational world-class professional assassin, only to return and defeat him with the help of a nuclear physicist/marine bioligist. ( If Indiana can do it, I guess so can Langdon).

A jet can carry him across the Atlantic in under an hour, without the G-forces from acceleration turning everyone inside into mush.

Anti-matter hydrogen would resemble a small metallic ball and could be contained in a magenetic field.

The blast from a 10 Kilton bomb would only be a nice gust of 'warm-air" outside the incendiary blast core radius.

Langdon can solve riddles in minutes, that have taken the greatest minds in history years or even lifetimes to solve.

The above are some examples of the implausible that we can accept for the sake of entertainment. However add to that fact that there are many things which are ordinary or quite simple and popular that for some reason, Langdon and other characters find impossible:

Ambigrams are easily made, and the idea that they are impossible, except for Bernini is just too ridiculous, especailly when this is used as a major plot element and how Langdon gets involved.

It is supposed to be weird that Vittoria is a Christian, a scientist and a woman. Not to mention that is shocking that a christian would practice yoga, which has become a buddhist art in this book, instead of ancient Indian art related to hinduism, whose origins far predate buddhism. In fact, scientists who are religous are considered extremely 'out of the oridinary' in this book. Why am I supposed to be WOWED by that?

Langdon, a harvard professor, as well as the vatican security forces have never heard of anti-matter outside of Star-Trek. I read about anti-matter in my high shcool Physics class, over ten years ago. It is not some new or secret phenomen.

Anyways, I really was asked by Brown to suspend my disbelief way too much, and in return, Brown offers a cheap comic book thriller.

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Arras
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Reged: 05/24/04
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: JoseConseco]
      #2448 - 11/23/04 04:04 AM

Quote:

JoseConseco said:
I suppose they were just eager to rush this to press after seeing the financial success of the DaVinci Code and got greedy.




One small factual error, here--Angels & Demons is a prequel to The DaVinci Code, and was published two years earlier. Admittedly, most people seem to discover The DaVinci Code first, and then read Angels & Demons second, but they were not written in that order.


Quote:

Also, while reading the DaVinci code, you could play along with many of the riddles and make a game out of it. Here, you are totally detached from the adventure, and just watching.




That's a good observation. I suspect it all depends on your areas of expertise, as a reader. There were certainly "puzzles" in Angels & Demons, but they rely more on the reader's knowledge of art history, rather than on mathematics, cryptography, or logic puzzles. To a lot of readers unskilled in any of these areas, I imagine both books must have left them feeling like vicarious participants.

Quote:

A jet can carry him across the Atlantic in under an hour, without the G-forces from acceleration turning everyone inside into mush.




This one's actually not as implausible as it seems. It's really nothing more than HST technology, the likes of which we've had in experimental forms for decades. The idea is to use a parabolic trajectory, like a ballistic missile, launching the craft into the upper atmosphere and letting it descend on a natural arc. The G-forces at launch are no worse than on any Space Shuttle launch, and diminish enroute to the midpoint of the arc, then aerodynamic braking allows the pilot to control the G-loading during the unpowered descent.

Quote:

The blast from a 10 Kilton bomb would only be a nice gust of 'warm-air" outside the incendiary blast core radius.




A 10-kton yield is small for a nuclear weapon, putting it on a par with the early atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Trinity tests in New Mexico, and their follow-ups in the 1950's gave soldiers on the ground a chance to experience (for the benefits of scientific study) what it's like to be on the periphery of such a ground-level detonation. (If you ever get a chance to see it, a 1982 documentary called The Atomic Cafe is well worth watching.) Entrenched just a few miles from the point of detonation, the experience the soldiers described was pretty much that of a bright flash, an earthquake, and a blast of hot air (laden with radioactive desert dust).

That said, a detonation at ground-level is very different from a detonation high in the atmosphere, and Brown did get it technically wrong. In an airborne detonation, the shock waves would be more acoustic than subsonic, and most of the heat would dissipate more rapidly in an upward or lateral direction (not downward toward the ground). You'd still experience a deafening shock wave on the ground, but due to convection you'd actually feel the air around you being sucked upward to some extent to fuel the nuclear fire (depending on how high above you the detonation occurs, you may also experience decompression of your lungs, having the air literally sucked out of you). As a curious side-effect, you'd find yourself engulfed in a sudden fog, as the fast upward-moving air condenses instantly (as happens in an aircraft during an explosive decompression). I'm frankly amazed I remember most of this stuff; it's been almost 15 years since Air Force physiological training

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SephiaModerator
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Reged: 11/28/03
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Arras]
      #2455 - 11/24/04 12:32 AM

Arras has pretty much said everything I wanted to say, and has done so a lot better since my knowledge of what happens in an explosion has been taken from popular films, rather than the air force.

--------------------
"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind

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Gnavpot
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Reged: 07/06/05
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: JoseConseco]
      #4302 - 07/06/05 09:45 AM

I know that this is a really old thread, but it seems to come closest to my own thoughts so I will take the liberty of reviving it.

I also stumbled over a lot of strange behaviour which made me stop and think "Why would he do THAT?" or "How is THAT possible". It is always irritating when this happens but it is really irritating when it happens in a story which try to appear possible and true to facts.

Strangely, it seems from the threads on this forum that most of the things which stopped me have not annoyed anybody else:

1. The priest/scientist controversy
Shortly after arriving at CERN, Langdon tells Kohler about Galileo's attempt to unite science and religion. A few minutes later. Langdon learns that Leonardo Vetra was trying to unite science and religion and finds the thought unbelievable. Why?

2. Buying time in the archives
The archives consist of multiple airtight compartments, each with a controlled athmosphere with a limited quantity of oxygen. I can accept that Langdon wants to examine the Diagramma within the controlled athmosphere since that is what he is trained to do. But why does he not take the container with the Diagramma to another one of these compartments when the oxygen starts to disappear from the compartment he is in?

3. Locating an antimatter container and a wireless camera.
We know that the antimatter and a wireless camera is stored somewhere together. We also know that the Swiss Guard have a lot of fancy electronics for tracing electronic transmissions. Still noone seems to at least consider the possibility of tracing the signal from the wireless camera, even though this of course must be strong enough to be detected - otherwise they would not be able to see the transmission from the camera. Why? This one really destroyed much of the reading pleasure for me. Whenever the search of the canister's magnetic field (of which noone had asked Vittoria for a detailed specification) was mentioned, I just thought "How stupid can you be?"

4. Predicting the exact operating time of an antimatter container.
There has to be a lot of uncertainty to the exact operating time of the antimatter container. Normally, anything you can recharge will have varying operating times depending on outside conditions and age of the energy storage. The container would probably be designed to last for at least 24 hours, with some added margin for these variations. The timer would only give a rough, conservative estimate of remaining time. Still everyone believes that the energy will run out in the exact second, the countdown reaches 0:00:00. This is so much Hollywood that I cannot believe that anyone would buy that.

5. The mirrored diamond
I had one look at the picture in the book and thought "unreadable". Then I read a little further and saw that it was a picture of the brand, not the branding. "OK, mirrored, now it makes sense: Earth, air, fire, water". After 6 pages and a view of the Camerlengo's chest, Langdon also discovers it. I know that he must be really tired at that point but does it make any sense that he cannot see that the brand must be mirrored? After all, Langdon's field of interest must include a lot of examining of old rubber stamps, rings and other devices used for making prints or imprints, so he must be very familiar with this.

6. Chartrand's role
Chartrand is the youngest and the lowest ranking of all Swiss Guards. But after the Kohler/Camerlengo episode he suddenly seems to be in command of (all?) other Swiss Guards. At least he is the one speaking when we meet him in company with other guards. I may have misunderstood this, however. He may just be the lowest ranking officer.

7. Working without any investigation support from home.
Vittoria and Langdon must have a lot of colleagues and students in their organisations which could help with the investigations, for example doing Internet searches for all Bernini's works and their current locations. Instead, Langdon uses a lot of time in the archive looking through inventory lists for signs of the third church while noone is working on finding possible locations for the fourth church.


But perhaps the most disturbing discovery was that Langdon did not have any role in the overall plot. He could as well have stayed home, and not much would be different.

He predicted the places of the killings, but he was not ably to prevent the killings.

He joined the Camerlengo in the helicopter, but he had no role in saving the Vatican from the antimatter.

He found the Illuminati Church, but this had been found by the Vatican a century earlier.

He saved Vittoria, but without his involvement, Vittoria would not have been kidnapped in the first place.

He killed the Hassassin, but I guess the Camerlengo would have wound up this loose end anyway.

He exposed the Camerlengo's evil masterplan and thus caused the Camerlengo's suicide, but since anyone agreed to keep silent afterwards, the Camerlengo succeeded with his plan.

So Langdon's contribution to the events is reduced to:
- Destroying page 5 of the Diagramma.
- Making a mess in the archives.
- Shortening the pope's reign with quite some years.

Edited by Gnavpot (07/06/05 10:02 AM)

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HKG
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Reged: 07/20/05
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Gnavpot]
      #4548 - 07/20/05 07:41 AM

I'm currently reading the book and I guess I haven't gotten to the point where the title of the books becomes apparent. Can someone please tell me why the book is called Angels & Demons? Thanks.

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DeA
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Reged: 07/24/05
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: HKG]
      #4576 - 07/25/05 01:34 AM

i am also currently reading the book... i don't have much time continously reading the book... i've been busy

--------------------
TiMe LiMiTs EvErYtHinG... :o

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DeA
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: DeA]
      #4577 - 07/25/05 01:42 AM

ohh... and may i say brown is a great author... he made me tell the story of the whole book to my friends... that's tiring you know... i think it is hard for him to write a book with undeniable fact and fiction all at the same time... all the while, i still enjoyed his books and i just disregarded those as man-made-errors...

--------------------
TiMe LiMiTs EvErYtHinG... :o

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Dazzle
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: HKG]
      #4579 - 07/25/05 01:46 AM

Quote:

HKG said:
Can someone please tell me why the book is called Angels & Demons? Thanks.




It's named after Dan's album.

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HKG
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Reged: 07/20/05
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Dazzle]
      #4580 - 07/25/05 07:11 AM

What do you mean Dan Brown's Album? Like music album? How does the title relate to the book?

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Illuminati69
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Reged: 08/12/05
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: HKG]
      #4727 - 08/12/05 03:26 PM

RE suspending belief: That's why its a NOVEL ! Not everything in a novel is going to be plausible!!

I love this book! I'm almost finshed it!

--------------------
Through research each scientist grows as a human being and helps others to do likewise- Pope JP II

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SeraphicRadiance
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Reged: 09/08/05
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Gnavpot]
      #5098 - 09/20/05 01:48 PM

Quote:

Gnavpot said:
He found the Illuminati Church, but this had been found by the Vatican a century earlier.




Was the real Illuminati church the same as in the book?

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SephiaModerator
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: SeraphicRadiance]
      #5099 - 09/21/05 12:17 AM

no one knows.

--------------------
"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind

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Remarkable
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Illuminati69]
      #5143 - 09/30/05 07:15 AM

Quote:

After all, Langdon's field of interest must include a lot of examining of old rubber stamps




Jose,

I went to Professor Langdon's official web-site:

http://www.randomhouse.com/doubleday/davinci/robertlangdon/

I can find no mention of old rubber stamps. Still, your points are well-made. There are, in fact, very many factual errors in the book.

I'm glad you were at least a little entertained by the story though: that was the humble ambition for the book. I'm glad too, that were you sufficiently stimulated to post your thoughts here.

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MsVetra
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Remarkable]
      #5185 - 10/05/05 12:24 AM

This thread half makes me smile and half makes me admire the people who have bothered to research so much in order to contraddict a FICTIONAL book.

However, Dan Brown has often said that ALL the historic and art quotes in the book, are FACT and not fictional, so I can fully understand why a few knowledgeable readers such as Jose (just to mention one) would find some of the elements in the book, very arguable indeed.

And now my personal tiny 'dig' at Dan Brown's work in Angels and Demons: his Italian was anything but accurate. I am not talking of spelling mistakes, but entire sentences that were litterally translated from English - quite an ugly sight.
I'd just like to say to Dan: if you plan on setting any of the new Robert Langdon adventures in Italy again, please do not hesitate to contact me, I'd be glad to help! ;-)

Edited by MsVetra (10/05/05 12:29 AM)

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Remarkable
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: MsVetra]
      #5187 - 10/05/05 12:36 AM

Quote:


And now my personal tiny 'dig' at Dan Brown's work in Angels and Demons: his Italian was anything but accurate. I am not talking of spelling mistakes, but entire sentences that were litterally translated from




Well spotted! But... did you spot the hidden messages in the *true* translations of the admittedly ugly Italian?

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MsVetra
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Remarkable]
      #5189 - 10/05/05 12:52 AM

Quote:

Remarkable said:
Quote:


And now my personal tiny 'dig' at Dan Brown's work in Angels and Demons: his Italian was anything but accurate. I am not talking of spelling mistakes, but entire sentences that were litterally translated from




Well spotted! But... did you spot the hidden messages in the *true* translations of the admittedly ugly Italian?




Yes I did, actually.
It was one evening, I was reading the book - surrounded by total silence, and I saw this light suddenly appearing in front of me. As I squinted my eyes, I realised it was nothing more than a luminescent writing: http://world.altavista.com/

And then I knew! The truth was finally with me.
Amen.

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Remarkable
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: MsVetra]
      #5195 - 10/05/05 04:59 AM

Quote:


Yes I did, actually.
It was one evening, I was reading the book - surrounded by total silence, and I saw this light suddenly appearing in front of me. As I squinted my eyes, I realised it was nothing more than a luminescent writing: http://world.altavista.com/





Well done!!! I'm impressed!! I wasn't sure you'd know what a Babel Fish was, and how it's relevant to the story. Very interesting, I'm sure you'll agree...

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gora
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Reged: 10/24/05
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Illuminati69]
      #5291 - 10/24/05 06:56 AM

Dea, you should buy the mp3 version on angels and demons, its gr8 when your travelling!

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Shadowglass
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: JoseConseco]
      #5322 - 10/29/05 01:56 PM

Angels and Demons came before The DaVinci code so a rush to press probably didn't happen

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whyte
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Reged: 09/08/05
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: MsVetra]
      #5357 - 11/04/05 12:29 AM

Quote:

MsVetra said:
This thread half makes me smile and half makes me admire the people who have bothered to research so much in order to contraddict a FICTIONAL book.




LOL.

HMM i was wondering why the assassin didn't recognize the camerlengos voice when they've talked more than once in the phone and even talked face to face?

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DrDaVinci
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Reged: 11/08/05
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: HKG]
      #5385 - 11/08/05 05:48 AM

I've finished the book and it isn't too much clearer! I think the Angels refer to the good and the Demons refer to the evil. Due to the various Biblical terms it seems likely that this was what Dan Brown was thinking. The questio that beckons however is whether the Camerlengo is the evil or the good? (think about it, it's more tricky than it seems!)

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SephiaModerator
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: DrDaVinci]
      #5389 - 11/09/05 12:06 AM

that's part of what I most enjoyed. While it is pretty clear that he is the antagonist, you can sympathise with a lot of his actions. I always liked that a lot more than the pure evil and usually pathetic villians that a lot of writers use.

--------------------
"Your life is yours alone, rise up and live it" ~Terry Goodkind

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Remarkable
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Sephia]
      #5393 - 11/09/05 02:36 AM

The point about Angels and Demons is that they *both* have time for us.

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MsVetra
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Remarkable]
      #5396 - 11/09/05 08:45 AM

How could you imagine that they were *designed* for you?

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whyte
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: whyte]
      #5413 - 11/12/05 01:27 PM

order of dan brown books
DF
A&D
DP
DVC

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whyte
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Sephia]
      #5414 - 11/12/05 01:29 PM

Quote:

Sephia said:
that's part of what I most enjoyed. While it is pretty clear that he is the antagonist, you can sympathise with a lot of his actions. I always liked that a lot more than the pure evil and usually pathetic villians that a lot of writers use.



from start to almost finish i had become a "fan" of the camerlengo but the last few chapters made me read the book in a "i cna believe this is happening " manner

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whyte
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: JoseConseco]
      #5486 - 11/28/05 12:35 AM

http://www.dannyscl.net/2005/01/dan-brown-is-fraud-list-of-errors-in.html

a mega list of the errors made in A&D
i dont mind them though for meA&D is the best dan brown book

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lrogak
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: HKG]
      #5489 - 11/28/05 07:07 AM

Dan Brown wrote enough music to fill four CDs back in the first half of the 1990s, and he sang on all of them as well. The Angels & Demons CD was his last CD; he gave up on a music career after that. To hear Dan sing, go to www.danbrownbio.com and click on Hear Dan Sing.

Lisa Rogak
Author of The Man Behind the Da Vinci Code:
An Unauthorized Biography of Dan Brown

--------------------
Author of The Man Behind the Da Vinci Code
www.danbrownbio.com

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Dazzle
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: lrogak]
      #5495 - 11/28/05 10:33 PM

Quote:

lrogak said:
Lisa Rogak
Author of The Man Behind the Da Vinci Code:
An Unauthorized Biography of Dan Brown




Hey Lisa, now that Dan Brown has made a little bit of money with his stuff do you think he will use a tiny percentage of this to enrol at a creative writing class so that he can learn how to write?

Maybe he can use the money he has made to fund a proper research trip where he actually visits the places he wants to write about so as to be taken slightly more serious.

Also, with your book, do you think it's really the time to write an unauthorised biography for someone who has entered the public eye based on one book - considering the other three retrospectively - or are you just late to take a place in the all-things-Dan-Brown-and-The-Da-Vinci-Code-cash-in-circus?

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Dazzle
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: DeA]
      #5501 - 11/30/05 02:45 AM

Quote:

DeA said:
he [Dan Brown] made me tell the story of the whole book to my friends... that's tiring you know...




For your friends?

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RoseyORyan
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: Dazzle]
      #5530 - 12/02/05 03:14 PM

Hi All,

It seems Dan is becoming a Rennaissance Man, already. What ever next? Does something extraordinary with the lute?
Rosey

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whatagreatbook
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Reged: 12/14/05
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Re: Thoughts new [Re: whyte]
      #5655 - 12/14/05 01:54 PM

Quote:

whyte said:
order of dan brown books
DF
A&D
DP
DVC




cool i never knew that

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